Saigon All Over Again

Sophrosyne

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I never thought I would see the likes ever again.
What are the US using for intelligence nowadays.
 
It's far worse than Vietnam. The people taking over in Afghanistan are medieval savages. It is an utter tragedy. There will be mass murders and women and girls will be forced into what is euphemistically called "forced marriages" or what is more accurately called sexual slavery where they can look forward to a lifetime of rape and violence. It is utterly appalling and was totally avoidable.
 
Disastrous mistake by Biden, he looked every bit of his 78 years last night when he spoke in the white house. He tried to blame the trump administration and also the Afghan army's lack of will to fight the Taliban. There were only 2500 thousand US troops in Afghanistan anyway and he could have maintained those , he also had the European allies on board who were willing to stay but could not without US air power. He undermined the Afghan army and his claim that the Afghan army would not fight the Taliban is false as the Afghan army took most of the casualties, they lost 7500 alone in 2019.

Yes trump initially did the deal with the Taliban but Biden had no problem reversing many other trump measures, the Taliban were not a sovereign government anyway. They had no problem reneging on promises to Saddam Hussein and gaddaffi before. In any case does Biden believe that the Taliban will honour their side of the deal?

What a catastrophe as the 20th anniversary of 9/11 approaches that the US is leaving Afghanistan like it did Vietnam in 1975. Biden is already a lame duck president a shoe in for kamala Harris is now off the cards , she will also be inextricably linked with the Biden administration and whatever global repercussions occur especially in the middle east
 
US foreign policy interventions using their military, and clandestine operations of CIA, have been an abject failure since WWII.
It doesn't help that their actual intentions are resource driven rather than the propagated notions of wanting to help women and bring democracy.
The US will be doing business with the Taliban in no time at all in the same way it comfortably does business with Saudi Arabia.
 
Now that the US is retreating from Afghanistan and the middle east, who will fill the gap and what does Europe do now? We in Europe are far more directly affected by instability and terrorism in the middle east than the U.S. is anyway. The sight of Biden last night an old man in charge of the U.S. withdrawal is truly worrying. Everyone in Europe from Poland to London must be truly exasperated by this sight.
It will embolden China Iran and Russia to start causing more mischief safe in the knowledge that the US under Biden will not respond
 
Now that the US is retreating from Afghanistan and the middle east, who will fill the gap and what does Europe do now? We in Europe are far more directly affected by instability and terrorism in the middle east than the U.S. is anyway. The sight of Biden last night an old man in charge of the U.S. withdrawal is truly worrying. Everyone in Europe from Poland to London must be truly exasperated by this sight.
It will embolden China Iran and Russia to start causing more mischief safe in the knowledge that the US under Biden will not respond
The shift in power from the democratic world to the totalitarian world is concerning and seemingly inevitable.
We've lost the fight to make Asia democratic with a totalitarian China and Russia and an increasingly undemocratic India. Central Asia, for so much of history the centre of the world and latterly the gateway to Europe, is not totally under the influence of Dictators and fundamentalists.

4 in 7 people on the planet live in Asia.
In 70 years 4 in ten will live in Africa. Maybe we should look there to foster democracy instead of playing savage games to control post-colonial resources but we are a decade behind China there too.

We may have seen the high watermark of global democracy. At the end of the Cold War we had the chance to build a truly just global world and we failed utterly.
 
We may have seen the high watermark of global democracy. At the end of the Cold War we had the chance to build a truly just global world and we failed utterly
But it is that thinking that was the mistake and led to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that we can remake the world in our image. In order for other regimes to respect us they also need to fear us, the Americans are no longer feared like they were after WW2. If they no longer fear the U.S. it makes the world a more dangerous place because then powerful regimes might really test the Americans and NATO and force a conflict where nuclear weapons are back on the table again.
That's the major mistake from Biden's withdrawal he has now increased the likelihood of a major conflict that the US and NATO will not be able to retreat from but will have to properly confront.
 
But it is that thinking that was the mistake and led to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that we can remake the world in our image. In order for other regimes to respect us they also need to fear us, the Americans are no longer feared like they were after WW2. If they no longer fear the U.S. it makes the world a more dangerous place because then powerful regimes might really test the Americans and NATO and force a conflict where nuclear weapons are back on the table again.
That's the major mistake from Biden's withdrawal he has now increased the likelihood of a major conflict that the US and NATO will not be able to retreat from but will have to properly confront.
What thinking? I'm just pointing out what think the future holds.
We chose fear over hope, intervention and nation building over support and real assistance, post-colonial control of resources and tariffs instead of fair trade and open competition. We blew it and now it's too late. Even if the "West" wanted to we don't have the human, military or economic resources anymore.
 
The Americans spent over two Trillion Dollars supporting the ousted Afghanistan Government,
Afghanistan corruption was among the worst in the world under the ousted Government,
the only reason the Taliban are back in power is because of corruption,
 
But it is that thinking that was the mistake and led to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq that we can remake the world in our image.
The mistake is that we can remake the world in our image, with guns.

The Marshall plan, the post war reconstruction of Japan are two successful instances of the US remaking the world, neither involved bombings.

You could go further and claim South Korea, Singapore and others as instances of the West remaking countries in its image through trade.

Send in soldiers with guns to remake society and you alienate the locals.
 
The Americans spent over two Trillion Dollars supporting the ousted Afghanistan Government,
Afghanistan corruption was among the worst in the world under the ousted Government,
the only reason the Taliban are back in power is because of corruption,
If they'd stayed out of Iraq they would have had the resources to win in Afghanistan. The day they invaded Iraq they lost Afghanistan.
Putting a corrupt CIA stooge in as the first President certainly didn't help but when people say that it's impossible to invade and occupy Afghanistan and Asia Minor it should be remembered that the Arabs did it, that's why they are Muslims now. The Arabs did it without destroying the vast cities with the most complex systems of irrigation in the world. They did it without destroying the greatest centres of learning in the world. In fact their conquest of the region was so successful that it lead to the Islamic golden age, and it is probably the reason that we know most of what we do about Greek Civilisation.

The Mongols, now they did wreck the place. I mean really wreck the place. Hasn't been right since.
 
Send in soldiers with guns to remake society and you alienate the locals.
Armies of liberation become armies of occupation soon enough unless all the other bits required to construct a modern society follow in short order.
 
when people say that it's impossible to invade and occupy Afghanistan and Asia Minor it should be remembered that the Arabs did it, that's why they are Muslims now. The Arabs did it without destroying the vast cities with the most complex systems of irrigation in the world.
comparing the medieval conquests with the modern era is not comparing like with like, you could say the same about the Vikings or the Visigoths, life was expendable and brutal back then , the arab conquests were as brutal and destructive as everyone elses at that time . You could say that the Taliban are successful now because they are following the exact same brutal playbook as their medieval counterparts. They have married brutality and barbarity with modern weaponry that they have robbed from the Americans.
 
I don't like the Taliban, Everybody on this forum doesn't like the Taliban. But, many in Afghanistan like the Taliban. There has been military unrest in such like countries for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.

Whether Joe Biden, Boris Johnson or Putin are right or wrong not to intervene is a "by-the-way" now. I wouldn't like to see a son or daughter of mine sent to Afghanistan or any other country to fight another country's wars. Why shouldn't Joe Biden think like me if he wishes?

I wonder is it time to call a halt sending military aid risking thousands of lives of people who have nothing to do with the situation? Is there a case for Afghanistan (and other countries) to solve their own problems?
 
I don't like the Taliban, Everybody on this forum doesn't like the Taliban. But, many in Afghanistan like the Taliban. There has been military unrest in such like countries for hundreds (if not thousands) of years.
Mainly caused by other powers invading.
Whether Joe Biden, Boris Johnson or Putin are right or wrong not to intervene is a "by-the-way" now. I wouldn't like to see a son or daughter of mine sent to Afghanistan or any other country to fight another country's wars. Why shouldn't Joe Biden think like me if he wishes?
Because they started it. It goes back to that age old rule of "you break it, you bought it".
I wonder is it time to call a halt sending military aid risking thousands of lives of people who have nothing to do with the situation? Is there a case for Afghanistan (and other countries) to solve their own problems?
It's hard for weak countries to solve problems which are caused by other much more powerful countries.
 
comparing the medieval conquests with the modern era is not comparing like with like, you could say the same about the Vikings or the Visigoths, life was expendable and brutal back then ,
Life is expendable and brutal now.
We are just better at lying to ourselves about it.
the arab conquests were as brutal and destructive as everyone elses at that time .
They weren't, though that's as much to do with how City States functioned and how diplomacy worked as the Arabs were certainly just as capable of brutality. Within a generation of the Arab conquest the region was thriving and more successful than ever.

You could say that the Taliban are successful now because they are following the exact same brutal playbook as their medieval counterparts. They have married brutality and barbarity with modern weaponry that they have robbed from the Americans.
True.
The fact that Russia was/is also arming them is deeply ironic.
 
Because they started it. It goes back to that age old rule of "you break it, you bought it".
I think they left it back like it was they paid two trillion for breaking it,
the only people to benefit over the last twenty years are the people who did not want it fixed the deposed Government,
USA will be paying another trillion in retirement benefits to the people who served there,
 
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I think the former Second World War Allies confused Nation re-building (Germany, Japan etc.) with Nation Building (Afghanistan etc.).
 
I think they left it back like it was they paid two trillion for breaking it,
the only people to benefit over the last twenty years are the people who did not want it fixed the deposed Government,
USA will be paying another trillion in retirement benefits to the people who served there,

I think the former Second World War Allies confused Nation re-building (Germany, Japan etc.) with Nation Building (Afghanistan etc.).
I would not be surprised if most of the people at the airport trying to leave are the same people who milked and squandered the last twenty years they were more interested in keeping the USA in Afghanistan forever and a day for money reasons,
 
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In fairness though it's not like Saigon even though the images are similar at the end, the US were never in a full scale war like they were in Vietnam or like the Soviets were in Afghanistan. They only ever had a relatively small number of soldiers there, the Afghanis took most of the casualties. It cost the US a lot of money and they lost a lot of hardware yes. But in Vietnam there were 75000 casualties with most of those being conscripts. The Soviets also lost a lot more soldiers and the Afghanistan war was mainly responsible for the break up of the Soviet union.

However the total abandonment of Afghanistan by Biden is still a major mistake they could have maintained the bagram airbase and kept a small permanent us presence there. That way they could have escalated things again if the Taliban started causing trouble again. It also would have denied the Taliban the propaganda that they drove the US out
 
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