T
the rock
Guest
I Built my House Last Year using Direct Labour , Recently I have noticed a considerable sag in the Ridge Line. Would anyone know Who is reponsible the Roofing Carpenter, or the Engineer who Signed of on the work?
moneygrower
Registered User
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You are! You're the project manager!!
Before doing another thing you should get this looked at by a building professional with a view to establishing whether or not the roof and walls need to be supported as the dwelling may not be safe.
A year is a surprisingly short time for such problems to develop unless you used really poor quality timber that hadn't been properly dried out before being used in the construction.
Using Direct labour has downsides.
A contractor on a small job means a single point of contact when things go wrong.
An architect heading a small design team means a single point of contact when things have been designed incorrectly and/or improperly certified.
You are now going to have to wade in and sort this mess out yourself, because you had neither on the job and even in the current situation, most architects wouldn't want to take this on...
However, all may not be lost - you say you have an engineer and a "roofing carpenter", whatever that is.
Firstly you need to find out what is wrong with the roof.
To do that you'll need an engineer to check the structure and possibly an architect and/or a damp specialist to look at other issues- not all problems with roofs are structural, some are cased by condensation leading to dry rot or water ingress leading to wet rot.
In cases of under-design, the walls may not be resolving and carrying to ground the imposed load of the roof, particularly any unresolved vectors.
On traditional houses a concrete "ring beam" was often used at the top of the walls to tie the masonry structure together [although these can themselves give problems] and give a firm springing point for the wall plate onto which the roof timbers were fixed.
Above a certain span, the roof must be a collar/tie roof to stop the rafters "spreading" and it sounds like you installed a cut timber roof.
These used be very popular, but relied on a working knowledge of such construction by both carpenters and blocklayers - typically there would be a central loadbearing spine wall towards with spreaders would shed their load from struts supporting purlins from which would be hung "hangers" to help teh ceiling rafters span the gulf.
Interference, omission, or removal of any of the composite load spreading members - spine wall, spreaders, struts, purlin or hangers - could cause problems.
You need to check what the engineer actually certified - was it limited to the design of the structure only, was it limited to visual inspection only, and if so was there anything visibly wrong with the roof.
You can start by talking to your engineer or you may wish to employ another building professional to check the property over before going near him.
He will review the design and the built work and comment.
FWIW
ONQ
A year is a surprisingly short time for such problems to develop unless you used really poor quality timber that hadn't been properly dried out before being used in the construction.
Using Direct labour has downsides.
A contractor on a small job means a single point of contact when things go wrong.
An architect heading a small design team means a single point of contact when things have been designed incorrectly and/or improperly certified.
You are now going to have to wade in and sort this mess out yourself, because you had neither on the job and even in the current situation, most architects wouldn't want to take this on...
However, all may not be lost - you say you have an engineer and a "roofing carpenter", whatever that is.
Firstly you need to find out what is wrong with the roof.
To do that you'll need an engineer to check the structure and possibly an architect and/or a damp specialist to look at other issues- not all problems with roofs are structural, some are cased by condensation leading to dry rot or water ingress leading to wet rot.
In cases of under-design, the walls may not be resolving and carrying to ground the imposed load of the roof, particularly any unresolved vectors.
On traditional houses a concrete "ring beam" was often used at the top of the walls to tie the masonry structure together [although these can themselves give problems] and give a firm springing point for the wall plate onto which the roof timbers were fixed.
Above a certain span, the roof must be a collar/tie roof to stop the rafters "spreading" and it sounds like you installed a cut timber roof.
These used be very popular, but relied on a working knowledge of such construction by both carpenters and blocklayers - typically there would be a central loadbearing spine wall towards with spreaders would shed their load from struts supporting purlins from which would be hung "hangers" to help teh ceiling rafters span the gulf.
Interference, omission, or removal of any of the composite load spreading members - spine wall, spreaders, struts, purlin or hangers - could cause problems.
You need to check what the engineer actually certified - was it limited to the design of the structure only, was it limited to visual inspection only, and if so was there anything visibly wrong with the roof.
You can start by talking to your engineer or you may wish to employ another building professional to check the property over before going near him.
He will review the design and the built work and comment.
FWIW
ONQ
T
the rock
Guest
ONQ thank you for your reponse,
I would just like to Clarify that the Drawings used by the Roofing Contractor were planning permission drawings only , a Structural Drawing was not issued or never requested by the Roofing Contractor , as this Roofing Contractor has over 25 years of experience of working on cut roofs. In my opinion if any structural arose surely it was the Roofing Contractor who should have asked the questions.
My Engineer certified the work on a visual bases only
I would just like to Clarify that the Drawings used by the Roofing Contractor were planning permission drawings only , a Structural Drawing was not issued or never requested by the Roofing Contractor , as this Roofing Contractor has over 25 years of experience of working on cut roofs. In my opinion if any structural arose surely it was the Roofing Contractor who should have asked the questions.
My Engineer certified the work on a visual bases only
It looks to me as if moneygrower was right: you are responsible.
Without building drawings and specifications, it is extremely difficult, probably impossible, to fix responsibility on anybody else.
Read onq's first paragraph again: get professional advice on the safety of the structure as a matter of urgency, and if remedial work is needed, then get on with it. Only then should you look into what I think is the slim possibility of finding somebody other than yourself who might have to take responsibility.
Without building drawings and specifications, it is extremely difficult, probably impossible, to fix responsibility on anybody else.
Read onq's first paragraph again: get professional advice on the safety of the structure as a matter of urgency, and if remedial work is needed, then get on with it. Only then should you look into what I think is the slim possibility of finding somebody other than yourself who might have to take responsibility.
Carpenters fault. Definitely.
Chippy should know:
1.what timber to use (sizes and quality)
2.what design to use for adquate support of loads
You can't cut corners on structural part.
Definitely the carpenter's fault? I don't think that would stand up in court unless the carpenter was engaged to design as well as construct the roof.
Mind you, getting a roof right is not rocket science. There are plenty of not-too-difficult textbooks available that tell you how to do it. For a few months of my life, when our house was being built and I was managing the project, I know all about how to construct a roof.
I agree with moneygrower above.
If you were the builder / project manager / employer, then it is your responsibility to ensure that detailed design and construction drawings, bills of quantities, etc are supplied to the various trades.
I'm afraid only you can answer this as in the absence of detailed drawings and specs, I'm not sure how the roofer knew what to build or what work or construction the engineer was 'signing off'.
sydthebeat
Registered User
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really,.. is the carpenter required to have professional indemnity insurance in case situations like this arise??? of course not....
If there's a sag in the ridge - it's likely that it is occurring at the wall plate - it is possible that the weight of the roof is causing the wallplates (or whatever they're secured to) to be pushed apart - any signs of cracking in the ceilings of upstairs rooms ?
<chuckle>
I'd say that's exactly what the powers that be will be workign towards in the next few years...
ONQ
The Carpenter required to have a PRIDE OF HIS WORKMANSHIP.
The situation "like this" can't arise, when you over 25 years exp. on cut roofs.
Some education sometimes helps as well.
You must be found a magic book...
We had to have a structural engineering degree (4 years studying) and min 4 years exp. on site cutting/stacking roofs to be allowed to construct the roof.
sydthebeat
Registered User
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Make your mind up. You already said that a carpenter should be able to do it. Most carpenters do not have engineering degrees. Some work at the "monkey see, monkey do" level. If they have not previously worked on a similar roof, they are not sure what to do. Usually such carpenters err on the side of caution, which is not a bad thing.
I found a textbook that is used in some of the Institutes of Technology in construction courses (more accurately, a book that was used in the RTCs; the house was built 30 years ago). It explained the stresses and potential stresses in a roof structure, and it had lots of useful tables. It did not equip me to build a roof (I suffer from acrophobia!) but it meant that I understood the whys and wherefores, and was able to project manage in a meaningful way. That is really my point about roofing not being rocket science. If you are project managing, you need to learn some stuff, and a useful degree of understanding is achievable. I also used to know lots of other interesting things, like the thermal characteristics of materials.
I had builders here recently doing some renovations. The lead contractor was a carpenter. He was very impressed by how good the roof is.
sydthebeat
Registered User
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i take it your german ??