Retirement assets - Will I have enough if I give property to chlldren before I retire

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Mothergoose

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I have three properties one worth 550k - family hone - a holiday home worth 400k which I intend to retire to and sn apartment worth 300k. I have 160k in cash. I sm 59 and working in UK at the moment. I will only have 22 years Irish State pension and 32 years UK State pension when I retire along with 3k per year HSE pension. I worked various different jobs around my children's need so never built up a pension of anu signifance anywhere.

My salary in UK is 57k Stg, bit it's a job with a lot of responsibilities and pressures. I hope to return to Ireland in 2025 to a part-time and less pressured job

I find it difficult coming home every second weekend and having to remind my adult children 23 and 21 - younger still in college - to keep the house clean, mow the grass, cut the hedge so the ivy from next foor foesnt grow under our roof, take all the dry vlothes from all the chairs they have left them in the living area and bring all the alcohol bottles from the various parties to the dump. It's exhausting to be still doing this, and there's slways a row about it.

Given these issues. I was thinking of selling the family home and buying them an apartment - Maynooth/Celbridge - for around 330k - this would realise me 200k in cash to add to my 160k and I could then semi retire to my holiday home and still have an apartment in Dublin. The adult children would then be responsible for all bills in the apartment, maintenance fees etc. I would be relieved of all the bills for the family home and would only have utilities on two properties instead of three. This wouldn't happen until next year as my son us still in college. The apartment would be in their joint names. The could sell it down the road and use it as deposits for their own houses. Anything else they might get would have to wait until I die. Does this plan make sense or not? Or what are the pitfalls in doing this?
 
Padraig Flynn complained of the cost of running three households on a European Commissioner’s salary, and that’s a lot more than £57k!

Ireland is stuffed with “family homes” that require a lot of ongoing maintenance and it doesn’t make sense if occupants have their minds elsewhere.

In your case you and children are better suited to apartments.

Plan to simplify your life makes sense to me - go for it!
 
Thanks, Dr Strangelove - that's funny re Padraig Flynn! I had forgotten about him. And he was definitely on a lot more than 57k. I feel worn down with the hassle of it, and I hate going back to it every second weekend - it gets me down with all the arguments about tidying up after themselves, and I end up doing some of it after working away for 2 weeks and tidying up my own place in the UK.
 
What is your plan for the Dublin apartment. Could you let it out to add to your income?
If you got a big enough apartment in Celbridge or Maynooth you could have your own room in it when you need it. I presume holiday home is abroad.
 
Hi! Mamamia, My apartment in Dublin is a 2 bed. I used to rent it out but would never do so again - I had 2 sets of tenants who wrecked it - and one of them I was worried would not leave - the let was managed by a letting agent, references were got etc. I just couldn't deal with tenants again. The holiday home is in Tramore. I work as a therspuat with children so I hope to just work two days or so in Dublin each week even when I retire.

Re getting an apartment with 3 bedrooms with one for me - I couldn't live with my adult children again. They drive me nuts, hence the reason for selling the family home and getting them an apartment in Maynoith or Celbridge.
 
Why not keep the new purchase apartment in your own name? Might be useful to have in the future. You could have many decades of a great life ahead. You could mentally disengage from the apartment, like it is theirs, but still have it as an asset. Hard to see why at your age you'd gift that amount to the kids. You might even get some modest rent from it. Leave all the bills etc in their name. But make a promise never to go there, never visit. It'll move your relationship with them along and they might grow up a little.
 
So you have a home in Tramore and an apartment in Dublin which you can use as needed but not letting out - and the kids could also live in temporarily if needed?

I struggle to see why you should be buying another apartment at all, just facilitating a lack of responsibility on their part - Next year after college, they are both adults and should be working. Maybe there's an issue with finding somewhere to rent, so needs time to plan - long term they wont share an apartment and one may want to sell at a different time to the other and i can forsee it being messy?

You could sell the house create a larger cash pool for yourself and then gift them each 3k per year to help them with their own rental costs or instead gift a bigger lump sum to help them get on the property ladder themselves. What is their plan at this stage as adults other than sponging off Mum?

50+O
 
There are two main issues here. 1) your financial needs 2) your children. You need to give us more details.

- How much will both state pensions pay you
- There is no guarantee you will get a part time job
- How much do you think you need to earn to have a very comfortable retirement.
- You are poor in pensions and rich in property. Total is 1,410,000
- what is your plan with the 200K + 160K cash?
- Why do you have 3 properties, is the apartment rented out currently?
- Have you figured out for each property how much they are costing you to run?

Children

They seem to have no boundaries and no respect.
Do you pay for absolutely everything? Is the 23 year old working?
 
Hi! Branco Lane and Bronte - I have three properties as I inherited the holiday home and the apartment was my first purchase/home.

Re my pension - with 1 x nearly full UK pension - 32 years and 1 x 22 year Irish State pension and my small HSE pension, I should have about 360 per week. I have no mortgages. I have been doing up my holiday home, new bathroom, solar panels, composite external doors, so it will be cheap to run

I had intended to rent out the family home if they were gone from it at some stage - it would get a rent if 2.6k per month, but after 2 really bad experiences with tenants, I really couldn't do this again, and then when tenants move out there is all the cleaning, painting, replacing bits of furniture etc. I have a Ukranian girl, eho is so nice and tidy in the house under the accommodation recognition payment. This helps with some bill but is supposed to be ending next March.

Re a part-time job - that's true that I may not get one. The area I work in us quite specialised. I think a lot of jobs in my field are just advertised because they have to be but are gine to someone temporarily on the job or someone known to people in the organisation.

My chikdren actually worked mostly full time in college. They have expensive tastes and lifestyles. I pay the gas, elec, bin, Internet, insurance, repairs.

My 23 year old has just finished college and is going travelling, supposedly for 3 years in October.
 
I had a family discussion about your case. For my amusement, not in a funny ha ha way but about what my children would think of your options. To see would they align with what you outlined, with what I think etc. Because now my children are of an age where we can have these discussions. And like you I'm at a crossroads on what to do myself.

So we had 'arguments' back and forth. Here was one scenario for you. I assume you want to 'talk' this over online - to help you focus.

1. I suggested you sell the Dublin home, and you buy them a property, but they only own it if you 'loan' them the money for it. To give them respect, money respect and exposure to some of life's money problems. Because otherwise to give is to create adult dependents forever.

Both sign a legal agreement to pay you back, and both live there. Crucially you buy a 3 bed, with one bedroom a very nice en suite and they rent that under rent a room, giving them the 14K tax free, to pay you their 'mortgage'. You give them each 3K annually under Gift allowance, tax free. You charge them the lowest interest you can tax wise. Your money is tied up, but you get a steady income stream, you teach them money and property management, and you never ever step foot in the place.

Your travelling child means a rethink on this option.

2. You live in your holiday home, sounds like you have it done up well. Tramore is up and coming for a long time, it could have gone either way but it's a fabulous sunny destination with many Waterford people living out there, you just have to put up with the couple of months of tourists, but at least it has not gone tacky or run down, it was headed badly but recovered. Excellent place to live. And as an added bonus has a 'city' beside it, with just the 2 hours to Dublin or Cork airport. You've lovely restaurants and all amenities, including a hospital. Perfect for retirement.

3. Dublin apartment - I fail to see the point of this?

4. You've not addressed how much you need for retirement. You need to consider care in older age.
 
I’d wonder about gifting them an apartment while they are young and not acting responsibly. It might be better to keep it in your name for the time being but that they should pay the management, upkeep and utilities. The other issue to consider is if either of them moved in a partner who might get entitlements how would you feel ? Perhaps if they paid you a nominal rent you could set it aside as a deposit for them down the road when they are in their late 20s or 30s. They should definitely be doing more for you financially at this stage. You have been unlucky with tenants I’d say the likelihood of that happening again is low. It’s a shame not to be getting an income of some sort from the Dublin apt. No matter where it is it would prob get 2k a month right now. I’d explore that a bit with a local agent. If you could get it right it might give you the option of not worrying about work again.
 
Thanks, Broxte - I like the ideas that your family came up with, particularly in relation to loaning them the money to buy a property. If I don't live with them after they leave college, which I don't want yo do, apparently I am taxed as if they were paying me rent to live in my property, so loaning them the money with a legal agreement that they pay me back would avoid this.

I estimate I need about 500 per week, so 150 more than my State pensions would keep me nicely in retirement, which would include my health insurance payments. I don't live high, cook from scratch and gardening and reading abd genealogy are my hobbies.

Why I want to keep the apartment is that the few jobs that are in my line of work are in Dublin. I wouldn't like to retire completely next year - ideally I would like to work part-time until I receive my Irish State pension - I dont want to waste my cash savings, however I have quite bad arthritis in my feet and starting in my knees so I may not be able to work until 66 even part-time. I want to retain the apartment also as I could let it out for 2k a month if I really needed thd money and could no longer work. After expenses I would probably come out with 15k per year. Apartments are not as burdensome in terms of between tenant maintenance.
 
I would suggest selling your main home which will give you €550k tax free. You could live between the holiday home and the Dublin apartment.

Parents put themselves under so much pressure to look after their families and end up like The Giving Tree. Your children are adults. You do not have to provide accommodation for them.

If they absolutely cannot manage in the short term, you could help them out with rent for a year or two, with the understanding that they will have to sort themselves out after that.

Even if you were to give them €2k a month for 2 years to rent a place together, that would still leave you with over €660k in cash. They can then strike out on their own, maybe with a loan/gift of a deposit from you down the line, but you would have plenty of money to keep yourself comfortable and you would not be under pressure to work as hard.
 
I think that your children would not appreciate living in an apartment in their joint names for much longer than a year or two. Your oldest is already off to see the world soon and won’t appreciate paying insurance etc on accommodation they don’t live in, and would probably like to rent out their room to fund their travels. The second would probably follow the same path, or want to live in the city centre if they get a job in Dublin. I do find my young adults are improving on the day to day house tidiness but it is taking years!!

If I were you I would sell the family home and then help them financially move out to a house share helping them with deposits, first months rent etc. you can gift them each €3K per annum for them to spend/save as they like and they will always have you as a safety net.

€550+€160K would fund you €500 a week for 27 years so you would be comfortable.
 
The children are unlikely in to want to move from Dublin. Convene a meeting to tell them that you are selling the house and be very clear why. Tell them that they have 6 months to get a new place to live themselves. The one still in college should be supported by you a bit more. They won’t believe you so get a cleaning company in to do a deep clean and have some estate agents in. It’s not nice that they have created this anxiety for you and not every two weeks is not about family time or you relaxing in your own house. You are enabling your kids to act like this so I think a few years of learning to survive themselves in their own is required before you provide them with any soft landing like a new house or apartment. Another poster correctly suggested that you shouldn’t gift them a place. I agree. They haven’t earned it. However if you buy something new and let them live there they sound like they will continue to take no responsibility for the property again.
 
Mothergoose said:
Thanks, Broxte - I like the ideas that your family came up with, particularly in relation to loaning them the money to buy a property.
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We discussed them owning and one of them liked that idea more than the loan idea ! But I refuse to fund it. Because our money is for us to take care of us until death as one never knows what is around the corner. Not going into it but I'm very glad we have money as certain expenses are very high now that I didn't know earlier in life how much would be needed. So I think you really need to think about that. In an ideal world €500 seems to you to be a great amount, but is it really. That's 26K a year. To me that sounds horrific if something unexpected crops up.
 
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Mothergoose said:
Why I want to keep the apartment is that the few jobs that are in my line of work are in Dublin. I wouldn't like to retire completely next year - ideally I would like to work part-time until I receive my Irish State pension - I dont want to waste my cash savings, however I have quite bad arthritis in my feet and starting in my knees so I may not be able to work until 66 even part-time. I want to retain the apartment also as I could let it out for 2k a month if I really needed thd money and could no longer work. After expenses I would probably come out with 15k per year. Apartments are not as burdensome in terms of between tenant maintenance.
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Personally I don't see the logic of a Dublin apartment just for potential work. Which actually sounds like a non runner given your health issues. Why not sell it and buy something in Waterford, that's cheap enough as a city for property purchase. (I look everywhere in Ireland as I'm in the market to buy). Much easier to manage something close by.

Agree that you should not run down your cash.

Have you considered getting a housekeeper in every Friday before you come home to clean the home house to your satisfaction, and tell her to not touch the children's rooms. And also tell her to dump their clothes from the chairs inside their doors. Because it's clear your children are not going to change unless you punish them in some way, and yes I know all about how exhausting it is to argue with warring children. I've sent mine a list of house rules in our new place only yesterday, I waiting until one had done their exams before doing so. I put toilet roll at the door to their bathroom yesterday and it sat there for most of the day, on my list too, finally one of them put it away. So I do get it. But most household stuff is sorted as I have my beloved housekeeper always.
 
I don't know of many 21/23 year olds that keep their place clean and tidy. Listening to my friends, they don't know many either. By the time they are 25/26 they seem to have copped on a bit.
Think the Friday housekeeper is a great idea.
 
Back to the Dublin apartment. You are paying management fee, utilities, travel expenses to get there and while you’re there. Add up what you are making from the Dublin work. Deduct all the costs and see if you would be better off getting at least 2k a month guaranteed. Check daft to see the rates where the apt is. If I was in your shoes I wouldn’t hesitate to rent it.
 
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