restructuring advice please

merida

Registered User
Messages
6
Hi all I only joined today so hoping someone here might be able to shed some light.
here is the background, bear with me its long winded enough.
we have a mortgage with the pt*b , actually we have one mortgage and one mortgage top up

balance owing on mortgage 1 is 155,267.82 and the term left is 20 years
top up balance is 28,930.77 and the term is 28.75 years
we are on a fixed rate on both till 2018 of 5.25%

we were originally on a tracker but in 2007 we had twins and with 6 interest hikes that year we were starting to fret and when a letter came offering a fixed rate we jumped at it....mores the pity!
Now we have been paying interest only for the best part of 2 years, my dh is in construction, he works any where from 0 days to 4 days per week, usually about 3 days per week, he gets little notice of upcoming work, often as little as a few hours before the job is to begin or be postponed due to weather.
i work from home childminding 2 alongside minding my own 2 children . its not great money but it means we dont have childcare costs to pay out and it a very stable income too. we dont have any family to help out.

we have arrears on both accounts, the larger mortgage we have 2 months arrears due to a clerical error, we were told in 2010 that we were granted a 3 month moratorium but alas.....2 months into the " moratorium " we received a phone call enquiring into why we had missed 2 months payments, we could not rectify the issue at this point we had used the money on major home repairs and that was how we ended up in arrears.
the top up mortgage was also a clerical error, i lodged the cash due into the smaller loan at the cashiers desk, the stub had all the correct acc numbers however the teller lodged it into the larger mortgage account, as this account was in arrears we could not retrieve the money and loan 2 went into arrears.

the sum total we owe in arrears is about 3400 euro

in dec we applied once more for a 6 mt interest only agreement, but we were denied as the underwriter had done some maths and had decided that the best way forward for us in this mortgage is to restructure the loan completely.

we should be repaying 1,017.15 per month on mortgage 1
and 152.19 per month on the top up

total : 1169.34


at present we pay 659.62 on the main mortgage and
116.75 on the top up
so the total is 776.37

now i have to stress this is alot for us, especially as my husbands income is so changeable. he is presently out of work again.

now we really want a workable solution and this is what we were offered over the phone.
the underwriter would like us to increase the mortgage term by 14 years, my dh is aged 35 and i am 32. we would be looking at paying the mortgage till ages 69 and 66. I am quite upset at this but i do realise this interest only agreement cannot continue either.
the restructure would mean paying an extra 200 euro more per month than the interest only at present, so about 980 euro per month, it would be 198 euro less than the full mortgage.

i had hoped that by the time 2018 comes along the interest rates might be more favourable and that by then my husbands work would be more stable we are currently on a fixed rate of 5.25% but maybe delaying another 5 years and not restructuring is just putting my head in the sand.
we have 2 other loans also due to finish in next 4 to 5 years, i pay 150 per month to the boi and 45 a month to a finance company, i had hoped that with a better interest rate and these two loans cleared we would manage the shortfall and finally be back on track.

i am due to see the banks manager next week to talk face to face , she has said all she can do is take an up to date account of the income though. she did say they will pay for me to see an independent financial advisor if we are to restructure. its very hard to calculate a full and accurate income for this household as my husbands hours vary so much and when he is fully unemployed he gets the dole, but again that all depends on his hours. often he is due to work 4 days and so he would tell the social welfare this and then he doesnt receive any payment which is fine , however it has happened that the job falls thru, the weather is unfavourable etc and then he had no pay and no dole. we are trying to balance a movable income and its exhausting.
finally my dh has had some serious health problems , he is very well the last 2 years but he got a disease weeks after we got married which compromised his immunity very badly and has on occasion ended up in intensive care being monitored. i worry he may not be able to work till his late 60's, its a very real possibility.
our house is not in negative equity we bought it for 188,000 in 2001, we paid 15,000 cash and mortgaged for 173,000 and the top up was for 30,000 in 2005, the overall we owe is 184,197 and i think the latest figures for sales in this area are asking price 200,000. we would def not want to move, it would be an absolute final resort.

now if all that wasnt enough to get your head around we have a surprise baby due in about 7 months also. so much for infertility!

should we take the restructure or have we other options?
 
Congrats on your surprise news first of all.
I am in a similar situation(without the pregnancy!) to you although we owe a lot more than you. I work full time and husband has unstable income and literally lives week to week.

We were on interest only for 6 months and have been paying full amount since last october. We are 2k in arrears and get a letter and a phone call every month to remind us of this ( as if we didn't know!)
We were asked to fill out a standard financial statement recently, just to keep them in the loop about our financial situation.

I was only on the phone to my mortgage provider today and was basically told to stop paying any loan that is unsecured ( credit union x2 and credit cards) and to pay the mort instead.
I suspect this is what your bank may say about the 150 and 45 that you are paying at the moment.

I have had dealings with your bank in the past and putting it mildly they weren't the most helpful.

At least you are not in negative equity though, we are to the tune of about 140k!

You could always extend the mort and if there is anything extra at the end of the month could you pay it off the mort?

Whatever you decide best of luck and try not to get stressed, half the country are in a similar situation and as I said to my lender today its not the mortgage is the problem its the cost of living!!

Stupid country!!
 
Hi merida and welcome to askaboutmoney

we were originally on a tracker but in 2007 we had twins and with 6 interest hikes that year we were starting to fret and when a letter came offering a fixed rate we jumped at it....mores the pity!

You say you have a fixed rate until 2018? Did you fix for ten years? Check your loan agreement and check the fixed rate agreement. You may be entitled to your tracker back in 2018.

If, as I suspect, you fixed for 5 years, and then fixed again, were you offered your tracker back when you fixed the second time? If you were not, you may be entitled to get your tracker back.

If you do sign a restructuring agreement, check the wording carefully. Make sure that there isn't some vague point in there saying "This is a new contract and replaces the rates you were entitled to" just in case you have rights to a tracker and sign them away by accident.
 
the underwriter would like us to increase the mortgage term by 14 years, my dh is aged 35 and i am 32. we would be looking at paying the mortgage till ages 69 and 66. I am quite upset at this but i do realise this interest only agreement cannot continue either.

Bearing in mind what I said about signing away any rights to a tracker, there is a big advantage in agreeing to this and no disadvantage in agreeing to it.

Your scheduled repayments at the moment are €1,179 per month. You are paying €776 , so your arrears are clocking up at €400 per month.

Under the new arrangement, your scheduled repayments will reduce to €980 per month. If you pay just €776, your arrears will clock up at €200 per month instead. If your finances improve, it will be much easier to pay €980 per month than €1,180 per month.

we would be looking at paying the mortgage till ages 69 and 66. I am quite upset at this but i do realise this interest only agreement cannot continue either.

Forget about what might happen in your late 60s. Your problems are immediate. You need to reduce your mortgage payments now. When your finances improve, you can increase your repayments without penalty - assuming you are not then on fixed rates.

Look at it this way, a person who has a 10 year mortgage cannot choose to reduce their repayments to a 20 year mortgage. But a person who has a 30 year mortgage, can choose to increase their repayments without needing the approval of the bank. Both may be paying the same amount i.e. a 20 year mortgage. But the guy who was on a 10 year mortgage is in arrears, while the guy who had a 30 year mortgage, is ahead.
 
we have arrears on both accounts, the larger mortgage we have 2 months arrears due to a clerical error, we were told in 2010 that we were granted a 3 month moratorium but alas.....2 months into the " moratorium " we received a phone call enquiring into why we had missed 2 months payments,

I didn't follow this story, but it's not that important. Some ptsb loan agreements gave the borrower the right to two moratoriums of three months each over the life of the mortgage. Check your agreement to see if you have this right. If so, agree the new rescheduling and then take advantage of the three month moratorium. However, continue to pay the mortgage during the moratorium and your arrears will disappear.

Alternatively, as part of the agreement, ask them to capitalise the arrears.
 
thank you brendan burgess for your replies
firstly we did fix for 10 years on the original larger mortgage and only for 5 years on the smaller one, but i think ( if memory serves me we then refixed for a further 5 years). i do not seem to have a copy of these agreements, its odd cos i document everything, but bearing in mind i had just had twins i may well have fed the papers to the dog thru sheer exhaustion. i have no idea if we get the tracker back. i am told they are gold these days.
this is def a question i will be putting to the bank manager next week.
i have been giving the restructure alot of thought and the over paying option on the loan is def a plus , although we have never managed to get ahead before so i wont hold my breathe on that one. it is good to know that its a possibility.
we have been granted a 3 month moratorium just this week actually which has taken the strain off and its giving us time to really step back and decide what to do.
the reason we fell into arrears was our local branch told us the moratorium back in 2010 was approved only it wasnt approved in the head office branch, by the time the error was detected we had spent the mortgage money. the reason we were denied this moratorium was we were 1 month short of the allowed time frame between the previous moratorium we took. tbh i cant remember the exact specifics. but i reckon the moratorium we are on now is the only one we will get for another year or 2.
i fully intend to have the arrears capitalised and will not be agreeing to anything unless they agree to that.
i am getting more brazen as i go along ;-)
brendan one question in relation to your second point, the only arrears i have are the 2 months missed, we have been on interest only so we havent had an extra 400 or even 200 adding onto the arrears each month or so i think anyway...i dont quite follow what you meant .
double deb, sorry to hear you are also in hot water, i have to say the pt8b have never told me to not pay the other loans back, anytime it was ever questioned i just said well i have been onto mabs and i want to honour all my debts. the boi loan is the main one, i have to say they were great to deal with, i was meant to be paying 300 per month back on that but after i explained the saga to them they agreed that i can pay 150 back per month and they have frozen the interest so its actually coming off the capital each month. they couldnt have been fairer
 
brendan one question in relation to your second point, the only arrears i have are the 2 months missed, we have been on interest only so we havent had an extra 400 or even 200 adding onto the arrears each month or so i think anyway...i dont quite follow what you meant .

OK, I may have got the timing wrong here. But it's the principle which is important.

What I said, could be recast as

If your scheduled repayments are €1,179 per month. If you pay only €776 , your arrears wll clock up at €400 per month.

Under the proposed arrangement, your scheduled repayments will reduce to €980 per month. If you pay just €776, your arrears will clock up at €200 per month instead. If your finances improve, it will be much easier to pay €980 per month than €1,180 per month.
 
Also, extending the term of your mortgage will probably mean you have to take out new life cover. If your husband has health difficulties this may be expensive or difficult so make sure you do not cancel your existing policy, you may be able to do a waiver for him on the additional term.

I would be inclined to ask bank for copy of original loan offer and subsequent fixing documents so that you can check about the tracker yourself, just asking the bank manager about it may not get you the right answer!
 
Congrats on the pregnancy Merida. I'm going to take a different viewpoint on the restructuring.

Your mortgage should be 1169 Euro
You're on interest only for now of 776 Euro
Restructuring will make it 976 Euro

You cannot currently pay the 1169 and indeed are in arrears, and will you actually be able to pay 976 which is just 200 Euro below that. You're adding a new baby to the mix and more children mean more costs going forward. And will you be able to continue your current childminding in addition to a new born. That's just some things you need to think about.

In an ideal world the restructuring if it gets you over these difficult years can make sense, but your income is very very fickle construction being what it is.

Were you entitled to mortgage supplement when your DH is not working etc? Have you looked at all your entitlements here?

I'm wondering also about your 2 other loans, fair play to Mabs and indeed BofI for being realistic about this laon and allowing you off the interest and allow the payments to be capital (others should take head of this in their own discussions with loan companies). If these loans were used to fund the mortgages and household spending and therefore you didn't get into arrears earlier it's another indicator that you cannot actually live on what is coming in.

Doubledeb mentioned that his bank told him not to pay his loans - but people need to be warned about this. Sometimes it can make sense but you've no NE so all you'd be doing is storing up further problems down the road.

I'm wondering would you be better off selling the house, paying the bank off and renting. You may not want to do so but you might consider it. I wouldn't be overtly concerned about the extension of the mortgage term but more about if this restructuring overall makes sense. You seem to have a lot of faith in the bank manager and if I were you I'd be really really crunching the numbers.

The tracker option is definitely an area to look into. Once you have the documents (don't believe the bank manager) you can post up the options you were given on here and maybe you have a case which would actually mean the bank would owe you money.
 
thanks for all the replies
i think i follow you now brendan, while on the interest only agreement we are not running up more fees but i follow what you are saying re: the restructure being easier to follow.
wbbs, ya i am alert enough to the hubbys health issue, he has a letter from his specialist saying the ilness has gone and he has a full bill of health, we were told its a sneaky illness that can occur so to be careful, i just dont see dh working till age 70 in his current work tbh, but thats for another day.
bronte, thanks for the well wishes. i have given great thought to the childminding issue, i will be able to continue with my main cm job, its afterschool so easily done. it wont be easy but i have minded kids since my own were 18 mts old , so anywhere up to 5-6 kids i can manage...i am exhausted at the end of the day but again its a steady income and works around family life. i also freelance when the jobs come up in another field, this isnt steady but very good income when it does come along.
we were getting the mortgage supplement from the sw on and off, to be fair the local community officer was very helpful and lied a little on a document for us as we had not submitted something on time that would have meant he could not re install the supplement as he said it had been abolished to new applicants in the last budget,he said it was his mistake and we got the supplement again.
we are on another temporary pause as we have the moratorium and cannot get this while also not paying the mortgage, this is another worry though, especially when we dont know from one month to the next whats coming in.god i hope it gets re installed this time.
as for renting, this is the absolute bottom line option for us, i would HATE THAT. to rent in the locality is about 850 per month, so for the sake of another 150 i would rather try to keep the mortgage going. we are not on the breadline yet thank god.
i will ring to get the loan agreement copies now, it will make for interesting reading!
 
quick question to those of you who understand the paperwork side of things. I have found the original copies of the original loans from 2002, they seem vague though. they list the amt of years, interest rates and repayments due but i do not see anything about clauses for coming in or out of variable rates..i did ring the bank and asked for copies of the agreements for when we did fix back in 2007, i am hoping these have the terms outlined for me somewhere, they said i will have them in 2 weeks.
so what is it i am looking for, is it in the smallest print with the legal jargin?, i think i may need to see my solicitor to figure this out properly.
i just noticed too that both the mortgage and top up were fixed for 1 year in the beginning then went onto to variable..i dont see the word tracker being used on the forms.
 
Did trackers exist in 2002? Could be wrong but I don't think so, if not then there is no reason to believe you would ever have had one or been entitled to go back to one unfortunately.
 
wbbs, yes it was around back then , we went thru a broker i was only 21 when we took out the mortgage. i remember the guy we dealt with going on and on about the tracker and how marvellous it would be . we had the first year at a fixed rate though. the house we bought was only at foundation level when we started to pay put for it, it was stage payments, so the more of the house was built the more we paid until it was fully completed. i will have to sit tight till i get the paperwork, until then i am just guessing.
 
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