PTSB Report on meeting with ptsb to clarify some issues

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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37,954
Padraic Kissane and I met with ptsb on Tuesday to get clarification of a few issues on the redress programme.

The current scheme will not be changed. However, the Appeals Panels may make systematic directions. For example, if they find the ECB +3.25% rate excessive, they could cut it which would effectively create a precedent for all appeals.

No error has been made on the treatment of split mortgages, as far as they are concerned (However Padraic Kissane voiced his view that many of the Split Mortgages would not have been required if the error had not occurred but this will also be part of an appeal at a later date). Some borrowers may no longer require a split mortgage based on their revised circumstances and can request to be put back where they would have been before the split. All cases on a split mortgage will be reviewed by ptsb as part of the normal three year review period or sooner through engagement between ptsb and the customer.

Where people have asked for calculations, they will be sent out in the coming days. While the interest will be calculated daily, people will get a month by month statement so it will be easy to check.

The Enforcement Investigation is separate from the Redress Programme. The Enforcement may result in fines, but it won’t change the Redress Programme

Everyone should send back their payment instructions as soon as possible. This does not affect their right to appeal in any way through appeal, legal or any other form of discussion.

Borrowers who have lost their property and who have been in legal proceedings (The Independent Appeals Panel)

Each one has a case manager and most have been contacted and met at this stage.

The Customer Appeals Panel (Cases which have not been in legal proceedings or loss of ownership)

The Customer Appeals Panel is awaiting approval from the Central Bank. Ptsb has nominated the members.

It will be completely independent. While the bank will have one representative on the CAP, decisions can be taken by the majority (the other two independent members) and the bank representative will not be Chairman. Ptsb will not make suggestions about how they do their work.

As far as the bank is concerned, BB and PK are free to contact the CAP and make submissions to them about how they might approach collective issues.

How the overcharge is calculated

The overcharge is calculated from the day the fixed rate was due to expire. No adjustment is made for the period from the break to the due expiry date. Some of the calculations are based on a margin which many customers will challenge as incorrect.

Ptsb developed the calculation system to work out the overcharging and refunds. KPMG provided independent oversight of the calculator and the inputs in parallel.


The ECB +3.25% issue

Padraig Kissane highlighted this as one of the most important aspects of the process and it is the source of a lot of the frustration for those affected We said that there is no point in having multiple appeals made on this issue and hearing each one separately. Someone should have the resources to make a good case on behalf of everyone. That way, professional help such as a Senior Counsel could be employed. Of course, individuals have a right to appeal immediately if they so wish and need not associate with any collective submission.

We are free to make such a submission to the Customer Appeals Panel.

Ptsb pointed out that they will vigorously defend any such appeal as the 3.25% rate is a contractual rate.

People who have switched lenders

Where people have moved lenders, ptsb will look favourably on taking them back. They can’t give an undertaking to take them all back as it will depend on individual circumstances e.g. where someone has borrowed more money or affordability has changed. People in this situation should also consider making an appeal to the Customer Appeal Panel rather than to the bank’s normal customer complaints department.

People outside the Redress Scheme e.g. those who did not break out early

They will use the ordinary complaints procedure of ptsb with recourse to the Ombudsman or High Court if they are not happy with the response. It is important to note the time issues relating to 6 years will apply here .
 
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Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
37,954
So what are the implications of all this for those affected? These are my personal views on the matter.

1) You should send the forms back immediately, whether you intend to claim further compensation or appeal any aspect of their decision.
2) If you have moved your mortgage, you probably should seek to get it back through a complaint rather than an appeal. When that is sorted, then you can make an appeal on the level of compensation.
3) If you are not happy with your rate of 3.3%, you should hold fire on an appeal for the moment. It may be better for a collective approach on this issue rather than a multiplicity of half thought out appeals.
4) If the only issue for you is the level of compensation,then there is probably no reason to delay appealing unless you want to see how others get on.

If you are not part of the Redress Scheme, get your complaint in quickly
The Redress Scheme applies to people who broke out of fixed rates/discounted rate early and lost their tracker. If these two factors do not apply to you, then you are not in the Redress Scheme. For example, if your fixed rate expired on schedule, and you are not happy with the 3.3% tracker rate, then you must make a normal complaint and go through the Ombudsman or Court as appropriate.
 
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Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
37,954
It's probably too early to be taking legal advice

I feel fairly confident that most of the issues will be resolved via the Appeals Panels without the need for legal advice.

It's likely that some issues probably will need a High Court challenge e.g. if the Customer Appeals Panel rejects the arguments on the 3.3% rate. But that is down the line.

Again, this is my personal opinion. It's up to each person to decide themselves how to proceed.
 
W

Wardy7

Guest
Thanks Brendan.

I have made a complaint about the 3.3% rate, not an appeal, just a complaint. I received notification in the post, giving me a point of contact and telling me they're looking into it. Apparently, I will hear back within 20 business days.

I'll update when I hear more.
 

birdie

Registered User
Messages
11
Brendan

I will be in a position to make an appeal within the next two weeks. If there is no appeals panel in place how might the timelines set out in the appeals documents operate?

birdie
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
37,954
Hi birdie

I have no idea to be honest. I have asked ptsb to confirm if the panel has been set up and who is on it.

Brendan
 

robe

Frequent Poster
Messages
67
With regard to the 3.35 % above ecb rate that ptsb put me on at the end of the fixed rate when rate was not specified.
I wrote to the ptsb redress scheme and asked to be included in the scheme as the rate they put me on was excessive .
I asked for the calculations they used and also pointed out that on the back of the mortgage document under tracker mortgages that point 1 clearly states that the % over ecb will not be exceeded during the term of the loan. Mine was 0.8 % above.
It was customer service that replied and they said they would investigate and reply within 20 business days.
I'll leave you know when I get a reply.
 

random2011

Frequent Poster
Messages
169
Hi Robe

Agree with you that 3.35% over was excessive. You say your rate was not specified but then say it was 0.8% over. What does your contract state? Did you work out the 0.8% yourself or did the bank advise this when you drew down the mortgage. Unfortunately I very much doubt the bank will come back with a cheaper margin unless of course 0.8% was specified in your contract. This does not make it right however.

No-one has ever said why some PTSB contracts had rates specified and others did not. Was this in error or is there a reason? Whatever the reason for having no rate specified the bank should not have offered the 3.35% rate which was more expensive than the variable when the fixed rate expired. But of course they wanted you off the tracker....
 

robe

Frequent Poster
Messages
67
I took out two mortgages one ppr with rate specified at 0.8 % above ecb and one btl with no rate specified. Both signed on the same day. The advertised rates at the time were the same for both ppr and btl .
 

random2011

Frequent Poster
Messages
169
I took out two mortgages one ppr with rate specified at 0.8 % above ecb and one btl with no rate specified. Both signed on the same day. The advertised rates at the time were the same for both ppr and btl .
Sounds like you got 0.8% over ECB on the ppr when the fixed expired but because no rate specified on the BTL you got 3,35% over on the BTL.
I myself have a ppr and had no rate specified. Was offered 3.25% when fixed expired.
 

robe

Frequent Poster
Messages
67
Got a reply from ptsb today. They are still investigating. Thanked me for my patience while they fully investigate the matter and they hope to be in a position to issue a response by 3rd December 2015.
Every effort will be made to agree a fair and reasonable resolution. If I remain dissatisfied with the banks proposed resolution I may refer the matter to the FSO.
They have taken over the 40 days they said they would take.
The only new bit is the specific date they gave Dec 3rd . Does that mean anything to you? ?
 

John Hayes

Registered User
Messages
7
Hi All.
I took out a mortgage with permanent tsb in April 2008 and took a fixed rate for 2 years. In april 2009 i broke the fixed rate and went variable. In january 2010 I left the bank because I got a better variable rate from AIB. I still got the letter from permanent tsb that others got offering me €1400 in compensation. This covered the 3 months from january- April 2010 I should still have been on a fixed rate. I got the same letter from permanent tsb others got....

“As a result of an investigation by the Central Bank of Ireland permament tsb has identified a failure which it made in connection with the management of certain mortgage accounts including the account identified above… a common theme is that customers who should have been able to move their permanent tsb mortgage to a tracker rate mortgage some time ago may not have done so because of a failure by permanent tsb. We apologise sincerely for this failure.”

By offering me compensation permanent tsb are acknowledging an error on their part. Ive asked them to allow me move back to permanent tsb and avail of a tracker rate and Ive asked them for additional compensation. They've rejected my appeal but Ive appealed to the ombudsman.
The reason I am appealing is permanent tsb never informed me I would lose my contractual right to a tracker rate mortgage (I never read the small print in the terms and conditions!)
Am I being greedy?
Thanks
John
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
37,954
People who have switched lenders

Where people have moved lenders, ptsb will look favourably on taking them back. They can’t give an undertaking to take them all back as it will depend on individual circumstances e.g. where someone has borrowed more money or affordability has changed. People in this situation should also consider making an appeal to the Customer Appeal Panel rather than to the bank’s normal customer complaints department.
This seems in direct contradiction of what they told us. John, could you email the decision to brendan at this website.

Brendan
 
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