Replacing Solid Fuel Open Fire

joe sod said:
I didn't introduce BTU units , the poster I was responding to did, I didn't actually understand what he was trying to say actually it was a bit nonsensical.
In any case the point I was making still stands replacing a wood stove with electricity will be highly expensive even at 5kW to 9KW output that will cost between 2 and 5 euros an hour to run at todays unit cost of 0.4euros per KWh
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OK Joe, point taken, and I agree with you , the elec heating is much more expensive.
Herr Roker definitely has a way of words, and yes I take back my other comment regarding your use of "BTUs"!.
 
T McGibney said:
That's a clear and deliberate misrepresentation of the link I provided and partly copied in #66. That link lists dozens of studies from the 80s and 90s on the health effects of wood-burning stoves, each relevant to your claim that this wasn't studied until a few years ago, along with a number of other less relevant ones, including one as you note, on forest firefighters exposed to high concentrations of smoke in their work.
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Again, which one of these studies deals with the affects of opening modern stove doors on indoor air quality? Clearly the ones you linked to about open cooking, forest fires, or atmospheric pollution don't apply.

Even in the first study you quoted in post #66, only deals with PAH concentrations, and notes little effect from sealed stoves. So your first reference seems to contradict the very point you are trying to make in the limited context of that study.

Suggesting that I read them myself to find the evidence you claim to provide suggests you have not read the studies. Do any of the studies you link deal with PM 2.5 or stoves that meet modern regulations?
 
Leo said:
Again, which one of these studies deals with the affects of opening modern stove doors on indoor air quality? Clearly the ones you linked to about open cooking, forest fires, or atmospheric pollution don't apply.

Even in the first study you quoted in post #66, only deals with PAH concentrations, and notes little effect from sealed stoves. So your first reference seems to contradict the very point you are trying to make in the limited context of that study.

Suggesting that I read them myself to find the evidence you claim to provide suggests you have not read the studies. Do any of the studies you link deal with PM 2.5 or stoves that meet modern regulations?
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This has gone on long enough and you've already attempted to argue from patently false premises. I'm out.
 
No one disputes that burning logs in a sealed stove contributes to outdoor atmospheric pollution. The effect on indoor air (from a sealed stove that’s perhaps opened for 10 sec/hour to refuel) is not as clear from my reading of these studies. Burning all fuels Including turning on a gas boiler/oil tank to heat a house contributes to atmospheric pollution. We need to heat our homes in circumstances where turning on traditional heating is a worry with energy costs. My grandparents mostly used open fires (one used a stove and regularly filled it from the top with turf and the kitchen would fill with smoke) and they didn’t die of lung or other cancers. Scaremongering is rampant at the moment I feel.
Can I ask if anyone has a wood pellet fuelled stove and if they can compare it in terms of running costs to a traditional mixed stove. The pellet version looks v expensive at around 3000 just to purchase. I bought my mixed fuel one for around 700 around 10 years ago. I doubt they will be banned. Don’t think there is money in the kitty for expensive heat pumps grants for all.
 
Interesting conversation.

Would anyone recommend using wood-burning stoves which now must conform to Ecodesign legislation (since Jan 2022)

www.fireplacesireland.ie

Ecodesign

Ecodesign is due to come into effect on 1st January 2022 for woodburning and multifuel stoves. Read this article for for information.
www.fireplacesireland.ie www.fireplacesireland.ie

New standards for domestic solid fuels announced on International Clean Air Day

New standards for domestic solid fuels for next year announced on International Clean Air Day
www.gov.ie www.gov.ie
 
redstar said:
Interesting conversation.

Would anyone recommend using wood-burning stoves which now must conform to Ecodesign legislation (since Jan 2022)

www.fireplacesireland.ie

Ecodesign

Ecodesign is due to come into effect on 1st January 2022 for woodburning and multifuel stoves. Read this article for for information.
www.fireplacesireland.ie www.fireplacesireland.ie

New standards for domestic solid fuels announced on International Clean Air Day

New standards for domestic solid fuels for next year announced on International Clean Air Day
www.gov.ie www.gov.ie
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Most of the conversation in this thread has been about the particulate matter released into your home when you open the stove door to fill it, rather than what is going out the flue. It would be interesting to know how they're related. I suspect a good portion of the PM that gets released into your room when you open the door is ash and incompletely burned gases, so a reduction in flue output (the target of the EU legislation) may not have as much impact on what ends up in your room as you'd hope.

Regardless though, reading up on what still comes out of an 'ecodesign' wood burning stove would not make me feel I want to sit in the same room after it's been opened -
New wood burning stoves billed as more environmentally friendly still emit 750 times more tiny particle pollution than a modern HGV truck, a report has shown.

“The most surprising thing was how weak the ecodesign regulation is, that was really shocking for me,”...“It means a new wood stove, fulfilling the strictest regulation we have and burning just one kilogramme of wood under optimal conditions, will pollute one million cubic metres of completely clean air up to the WHO guideline level.”

www.theguardian.com

‘Eco’ wood stoves emit 750 times more pollution than an HGV, study shows

Only ecodesign stoves can be legally sold from 2022 – but experts say the standard is shockingly weak
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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If you're going to use one then sure yes, buy the cleanest one you can, although I think ecodesign is a legal requirement now anyway?
 
Zenith63 said:
If you're going to use one then sure yes, buy the cleanest one you can, although I think ecodesign is a legal requirement now anyway?
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Yes, mandatory since the start of last year across the EU. For practicality, just like vehicle emissions the testing is carried out in a lab under ideal conditions but as you mention, they only assess flue emissions.
 
Anyone got any recommendations on a gas stove, mains gas? Have ufh but might be nice to when a little bit of extra heat needed.
 
Jim Stafford said:
I instructed ChatGPT to write an article on "Are wood burning stoves dangerous to your health". This is what it wrote:

Wood burning stoves are a popular and economical way to heat a home, but if not properly maintained and used, they can pose a serious threat to your health. Wood burning stoves release particulate matter, carbon monoxide, nitrogen dioxide, and other pollutants into the air, which can be hazardous to your health. Particulate matter is a mix of solid and liquid droplets that are small enough to enter the lungs. Long-term exposure to particulate matter can cause a variety of respiratory problems, including asthma, bronchitis, and lung cancer. Carbon monoxide is an odorless, colorless gas that can cause dizziness, headaches, and even death if inhaled in large enough quantities. Nitrogen dioxide is a toxic gas that can cause inflammation of the lungs and worsen existing respiratory conditions. To reduce the health risks of wood burning stoves, it's important to properly maintain the stove and venting system. Make sure the stove is installed according to manufacturer instructions and the venting system is regularly inspected for any damage or blockages. The chimney should be cleaned at least once a year by a certified chimney sweep. When using the wood burning stove, never use a fuel that produces more smoke than heat,

Jim Stafford
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I've never heard of a Certified Chimney Sweep
 
roker said:
I've never heard of a Certified Chimney Sweep
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Some offer certs, don't know who or what certifies them but I had one for a few years that gave me a sort of 'cert' each year, can't even remember now what it looked like, he disappeared off scene anyway and the regular guy now just turns up with his plain van and no paper/receipts/certs!
 
Leo said:
It would be close to impossible to determine the potential affect at an individual level of any health risk. You would need absolute certainty of the extent to which thousands of other factors are affecting the health of that individual. As a result, the likely impact of pollutants can only effectively be assessed in broad terms.

Like smoky coal, no one can determine the likely outcome for an individual, but at a population scale you can see a correlation between the Dublin ban in 1990 and a significant drop in stroke, respiratory and cardiovascular disease and deaths. Wood burning stoves release similar PM 2.5 particulate matter.
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I read the original report and while wood stoves do release more PM2.5 they release only about 1/9 of the level that open fires do, and about 150 times a gas boiler. But some people who install them do so in homes that otherwise would have very poor or inefficient heating (i.e. electric storage or panel heaters). I don't know if the impact of that is taken into account, or if people scared of stoves might resort to burning open fires in the wrong headed belief that stoves (and not the combustion process) are the problem. Apparently much of this is also down to the kinds of fuel being burned - "green" wood and other forms of wood that isn't 20% or lower moisture content are a large part of the problem, and insufficiently dried fuel is a far bigger issue than stoves per se.
 
Monbretia said:
Some offer certs, don't know who or what certifies them but I had one for a few years that gave me a sort of 'cert' each year, can't even remember now what it looked like, he disappeared off scene anyway and the regular guy now just turns up with his plain van and no paper/receipts/certs!
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I assume they mean HETAS certification which is a UK based training system for stove installers. Would be common amongst chimney specialists here.
bpmsupplies.ie

Hetas Installers In Your Area

Oriel Flues have trained over 300 Stove Installers, to find your nearest HETAS trained Stove Installer just use the map below.
bpmsupplies.ie bpmsupplies.ie
 
fidelcastro said:
Is the general assertion here that the internal pollution of a closed stove is equivalent to a traditional open fire ?.
Sorry, that doesnt standup to common sense.
if a person is switching from a 20% open chimney, to 80% efficient closed stove heater , to produce same amount of heat , which needs very occasionally refulling, the amount of pollution experienced by the dwelling inhabitants is clearly reduced.
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FWIW the study most of the recent news is based on is here
Its based on evidence from Denmark and lab studies and the relevant detail on page 6
Basically a stove installed before about 5 years ago would have 150 pm2.5 g pollutant per GJ house heating compared to 0.6g for gas boiler. Oil boiler has 0.1g. Open fire would have 1367g, wood pellet boiler has 55g and heat pump 1g.

So yes, the reduction over an open fire is considerable - 150g rather than 1367g. And I'm hearing people taking what they are hearing in the press to mean that burning in an open fire is somehow "safer" which is clearly not true. And I presume don't know if this is controlled for fuel quality - Mickey burning the half dried bits of last years ash tree is clearly going to emit far more PM2.5 than a controlled fuel with under 20% moisture content.
 
lff12 said:
But some people who install them do so in homes that otherwise would have very poor or inefficient heating (i.e. electric storage or panel heaters). I don't know if the impact of that is taken into account, or if people scared of stoves might resort to burning open fires in the wrong headed belief that stoves (and not the combustion process) are the problem.
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The main concern raised in the ongoing debate in the UK is the number of them being installed in new builds for largely aesthetic reasons. Just 8% of the population there have wood buring stoves, but they are responsible for 38% of PM 2.5.
 
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