Rent Allowance - possible abuse of system

Complainer said:
I'm still very confused by your stories. Who is the 'we' in this story? Is it the HSE? or the local authority? or the landlord? Who requires the references?
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I'm an Auctioneer, the we was an estate agency on behalf of a landlord, the reference was provided by a TD, although it was more of an appeal than a reference.
 
Bronte said:
I'm at a loss to understand how the tenant is benefitting here if they are paying 53 euro instead of 18. Is it something to do with what another poster said on another thread that people are not allowed to rent property that is in excess of the limits of the HSE?

Also what is the benefit to the landlord, (other than having the property rented) they have to register the tenancy with the PRTB including the rent amount and they have to declare the amount received to revenue so this would be very messy indeed, from a landlord's perspective.
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Generally tenants will do it to get a bigger place (sublet rooms) or a better place than their allowance caters for but as far as I know they are not supposed to be adding to it over a certain amount. It is messy for a landlord but some are willing to do it where as others are starting to realise that it's not worth it.
 
ok, i agree with alot of the posts on this thread especially the single parents, living with full time partners etc. in fact i know a number of couples that are young and only move in together because its so cheap and theya re out of parents homes. in respect to the rent ceilings, i personally many years ago, rented a house with my son, i received rent allowance and worked part time, i was honest with all my hours etc, but in order to live in a nice area, with nice schools etc and nice reputation, i told CWO that the rent was 650 instead of 850, and the landlord signed everything i needed ( sure he was getting an extra 200 cash a month), it meant i struggled alot to pay my rent but it was what i had to do, as on council lists i would be there for years. thankfully i have single purchased a house but at the time, although it was wrong to do, i felt safe and i didnt fall into the vicous cylcle of bein on benefits and not coming off them! i have numerous friends that all still claim benefits ,drive nice cars, rent houses fair enough, but have the large flat screen tvs and above an beyond all the mod cons. rent allowance fraud is extremely annoying and should be monitorred more closely, but at the same time, the ceilings need to be looked at. for example, for a decent home in a decent area the prices are alot higher than in disadvantaged areas! not all single mums should result in living here because they are no longer with the father no matter what the circumstances!
 
Blossy said:
ok, i agree with alot of the posts on this thread especially the single parents, living with full time partners etc. in fact i know a number of couples that are young and only move in together because its so cheap and theya re out of parents homes. in respect to the rent ceilings, i personally many years ago, rented a house with my son, i received rent allowance and worked part time, i was honest with all my hours etc, but in order to live in a nice area, with nice schools etc and nice reputation, i told CWO that the rent was 650 instead of 850, and the landlord signed everything i needed ( sure he was getting an extra 200 cash a month), it meant i struggled alot to pay my rent but it was what i had to do, as on council lists i would be there for years. thankfully i have single purchased a house but at the time, although it was wrong to do, i felt safe and i didnt fall into the vicous cylcle of bein on benefits and not coming off them! i have numerous friends that all still claim benefits ,drive nice cars, rent houses fair enough, but have the large flat screen tvs and above an beyond all the mod cons. rent allowance fraud is extremely annoying and should be monitorred more closely, but at the same time, the ceilings need to be looked at. for example, for a decent home in a decent area the prices are alot higher than in disadvantaged areas! not all single mums should result in living here because they are no longer with the father no matter what the circumstances!
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Blossy - I simultaneously agree and disagree with you on this.
I totally understand that people want to live in better areas. But why should my taxes pay for this? I work hard to get the money to live in an area I want to live in (and in fact Id personally like to be living in a better one myself), but why should someone else get to work part time (which Id love to be able to afford to do!!!) and yet still live in a nice area on my taxes?
 
MrMan said:
I'm an Auctioneer, the we was an estate agency on behalf of a landlord, the reference was provided by a TD, although it was more of an appeal than a reference.
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Now I'm starting to understand - so the reference was really a private matter between the renter, the TD and the landlord - nothing really to do with the rent allowance.

I don't condone abuse of the system as outlined here, but I trust that those that attack abuse by renters will also attack tax evasion by landlords, which is something of an Irish tradition by now.
 
Complainer said:
I trust that those that attack abuse by renters will also attack tax evasion by landlords, which is something of an Irish tradition by now.
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Yes - I think any tax evasion is screwing the system so tax evasion by landlords is just as bad.
 
Complainer said:
Now I'm starting to understand - so the reference was really a private matter between the renter, the TD and the landlord - nothing really to do with the rent allowance.

I don't condone abuse of the system as outlined here, but I trust that those that attack abuse by renters will also attack tax evasion by landlords, which is something of an Irish tradition by now.
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My reason for including the TD in my account of that experience was she gave us the thumbs up as to the character of a would be tenant because we wouldn't generally deal with rent allowance. When it went belly up and the tenant pocketed the money, and was ready to move on to the next premises, the TD wanted nothing to do with us, she wasn't outraged that public resources were being so blatantly abused or that the woman that she refered to us was going to have no punishment, she simply wanted no more to do with it. If that is the attitude of those at the top what good is even reporting abuses. The TD in question would be in opposition to the govt so its not just FF that turn a blind eye.
 
truthseeker said:
Blossy - I simultaneously agree and disagree with you on this.
I totally understand that people want to live in better areas. But why should my taxes pay for this? I work hard to get the money to live in an area I want to live in (and in fact Id personally like to be living in a better one myself), but why should someone else get to work part time (which Id love to be able to afford to do!!!) and yet still live in a nice area on my taxes?
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ok, not to get into an argument but i worked for ten year before i fell pregnant, so i think with the taxes i paid in those ten years i deserved to live in a nice home/area rather than be shafted into a box flat because im was on social welfare payments, i also worked part time, paid ridiculus childcare rates and to pay the difference was my choice even tho the landlord at the time was getting away with paying the taxes.

believe me it makes my blood boil when i see the sponges of the system and how they abuse the system, but its a vicious circle, why not stay sponging and have the nice house? i chose not to, and others too, i actually know of a woman who is claiming one parent and getting rent allowance and is getting so much and life is so comfortable that she rather name her children different surnames than to admit they all with the one father and come off the benefits! :0
 
Blossy said:
ok, not to get into an argument but i worked for ten year before i fell pregnant, so i think with the taxes i paid in those ten years i deserved to live in a nice home/area rather than be shafted into a box flat because im was on social welfare payments, i also worked part time, paid ridiculus childcare rates and to pay the difference was my choice even tho the landlord at the time was getting away with paying the taxes.
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Not arguing at all Blossy - just sharing opinions :)
My view is that none of us has the 'right' to live in a nice area - its something that we (or I at least), manage to do by ongoing hard work.
I realise that people get into situations that they did not intend to get into - I dont think the situation is totally black and white. But if the state is paying my rent then I dont think I have the right to expect my choice of area to live in, I think that I would be grateful that the state is giving me the rent allowance because in another country I could be on the streets.

Blossy said:
believe me it makes my blood boil when i see the sponges of the system and how they abuse the system, but its a vicious circle, why not stay sponging and have the nice house? i chose not to, and others too, i actually know of a woman who is claiming one parent and getting rent allowance and is getting so much and life is so comfortable that she rather name her children different surnames than to admit they all with the one father and come off the benefits! :0
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I agree with all of the above.
 
Purple said:
I know someone who was renting his house to his partner and child. She gets loan parents allowance and rent relief as well as assistance from the health board and StVDP. He lives in the same house and is in well paid full time employment. I know they were reported about 18 months ago but so far nothing has happened. The person who reported them works with homeless people, they said that the above abuse in very common.
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Maybe if the person reported them again now it may be acted upon, changing times seem to have re-focussed DSFA back to detecting fraud. I can see how a person dealing with the Homeless would be incensed with this case, the total neck of them going to SVdeP also.
 
MrMan said:
My reason for including the TD in my account of that experience was she gave us the thumbs up as to the character of a would be tenant because we wouldn't generally deal with rent allowance. When it went belly up and the tenant pocketed the money, and was ready to move on to the next premises, the TD wanted nothing to do with us, she wasn't outraged that public resources were being so blatantly abused or that the woman that she refered to us was going to have no punishment, she simply wanted no more to do with it. If that is the attitude of those at the top what good is even reporting abuses. The TD in question would be in opposition to the govt so its not just FF that turn a blind eye.
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What would you want/expect her to do? What would you do if a past employee that you had given a reference for went 'bad'?
 
MrMan said:
My reason for including the TD in my account of that experience was she gave us the thumbs up as to the character of a would be tenant because we wouldn't generally deal with rent allowance. When it went belly up and the tenant pocketed the money, and was ready to move on to the next premises, the TD wanted nothing to do with us, she wasn't outraged that public resources were being so blatantly abused or that the woman that she refered to us was going to have no punishment, she simply wanted no more to do with it. If that is the attitude of those at the top what good is even reporting abuses. The TD in question would be in opposition to the govt so its not just FF that turn a blind eye.
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This is because all the TD is interested in is the vote and they don't care how they get it or who they have to trample on to get it.
 
Blossy said:
although it was wrong to do, I felt safe and I didn't fall into the vicious cycle of being on benefits and not coming off them! /quote] Thanks Blossy for being so honest. I believe it shows us a side of life that we hope never to have to experience. You did what was best for your children and I completely understand why you didn't want to live in a certain area. There are parts of Ireland where people cannot leave the house for fear of what the thugs in their area will do to them. I know one woman who left a part of Limerick for a caravan in a field just to do the best for her kids. I met another woman who had lived in a council estate in the UK and what she told me about it beggers belief. I would rather have lived in a tent than live where she had. This is not about nice areas and not so nice areas.

If the system leads to abuse there may be valid reasons that people do these things and that should be looked at by the government. Sometimes government action leads to people abusing the system. There is a thing called the vicious cycle of poverty to which people get sucked in.
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Complainer said:
What would you want/expect her to do? What would you do if a past employee that you had given a reference for went 'bad'?
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I would expect that she would say that she will not provide heartfelt references for this person in the future and more so that she would investigate the abuse of the system so that it may not be as likely to happen again. Are you ok with a TD saying 'it's nothing to do with me' when it has everything to do with her?
 
Bronte said:
I'm at a loss to understand how the tenant is benefitting here if they are paying 53 euro instead of 18. Is it something to do with what another poster said on another thread that people are not allowed to rent property that is in excess of the limits of the HSE?

Also what is the benefit to the landlord, (other than having the property rented) they have to register the tenancy with the PRTB including the rent amount and they have to declare the amount received to revenue so this would be very messy indeed, from a landlord's perspective.
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I don't think anyone mentioned anyone 'benefiting' from the example given. Manipulation of the system was what was being discussed.
 
MrMan said:
I would expect that she would say that she will not provide heartfelt references for this person in the future and more so that she would investigate the abuse of the system so that it may not be as likely to happen again. Are you ok with a TD saying 'it's nothing to do with me' when it has everything to do with her?
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A reference is a reference. It's not a guarantee. Things can and will go wrong. How or if she deals with this person in the future is between the two of them. It is nothing to do with you. The TD may well have been keen to distance herself from your probable breach of data protection legislation in revealing information about the tenant to a 3rd party (the TD) without the tenant's permission.

In relation to the possibility of future abuse of the scheme, given that you've refused to identify the scheme in question, it really isn't possible to make any sensible comment about this.
 
Welfarite said:
I don't think anyone mentioned anyone 'benefiting' from the example given. Manipulation of the system was what was being discussed.
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You are correct but I can't see why a landlord would do it unless there was a benefit to him.
 
Complainer said:
Presumably the benefit to the landlord is getting the tenant in place, and becoming a steady income stream.
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That is certainly a benefit which would be outweighed by having to lie on the PRTB form and from there to lying to revenue, this benefit cannot outweight the possible punishment down the line. Of course to a landlord outside the system it wouldn't matter they'll never get caught.
 
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