"Reasonable Living Guidelines" to be issued by the Personal Insolvency Service (PIS)

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Booter

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Some of today's newspapers are carrying articles referring to guidelines on reasonable living expenses (which purport to rule out Sky Sports, 2nd Cars, foreign holidays etc) or those seeking debt write down deals with their banks.

They don't cite any source for this information, nor can I find any such published guidelines myself. I don't think the insolvency service has a website up yet. Is anyone aware of the source of these reports?
 
The stories are based on the news that the Insolvency Service of Ireland is expected to announce its guidelines on reasonable living expenses next Wednesday.

Jim Stafford
 
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/debt-deals-leave-just-5-per-day-for-food-29163749.html
CHARLIE WESTON PERSONAL FINANCE EDITOR – 30 MARCH 2013

HOMEOWNERS with mortgages they cannot pay face giving up their homes to get a debt deal.

And people getting a write-off on their borrowings will also be told that they can no longer give money to charity.

Families of four face getting by on food spending of just €20 a day, or €5 per person, while those living in a large town or city with good transport links will have to ditch their cars.

The strict restrictions are all contained within "reasonable living guidelines" to be issued by the Personal Insolvency Service as it prepares to offer new deals on debt.

A full copy of the guidelines have been obtained by the Irish Independent. They show for the first time the financial constraints that families will be living under if they seek a deal. The guidelines show:

• Families with two children will be told to live on a maximum of €22,500 a year. This takes account of child benefit payments, but does not allow for childcare costs, or mortgage payments.

• If the family needs to spend money on childcare it will have to prove what it costs by producing receipts or bank details.

• But the final budget allowed will vary from case to case, with flexibility allowed for different debtor circumstances.

The guidelines are not going to change, despite a week-long controversy over childcare costs, this newspaper has learned. They are now due to be issued in mid-April, before the new personal insolvency regime begins this summer.

Justice Minister Alan Shatter has already acknowledged that the new system won't completely negate "bankruptcy tourism", where people head to the UK to avail of more lenient laws there.

But there are now more options coming in for debt-ravaged people to stay in Ireland, get some debt written off and strike a deal with the bank.

Under the new guidelines, those in big homes who can't afford their mortgages will not necessarily get to keep the house.

Personal insolvency practitioners (PIPs) who negotiate the deal between the bank and debtor will have to look at the "cost of alternative accommodation".

And if staying in the family home will cost too much compared to alternatives like renting, then the debtor may be asked to leave the property.

It states: "Where the PIP forms the opinion that the costs of continuing to reside in the debtor's principal private residence are disproportionately large, he or she will not be required to formulate a proposal on the basis of the debtor continuing to occupy the property."

Meanwhile, Taoiseach Enda Kenny insisted this week that it would not be mandatory for those seeking a personal insolvency arrangement or debt settlement arrangement to give up a job where childcare costs were higher than wages.

His comments came after Transport Minister Leo Varadkar suggested parents may have to give up work to save on childcare costs.

But the guidelines suggest that "where a person is working and paying for childcare as a consequence of his or her employment, the cost of childcare should not exceed the income from employment".

Charity

It is understood from those close to the Insolvency Service that this has been widely misinterpreted as being a strict rule but it will not apply in every case and was put into the booklet to establish a principle.

The controversial guideline is also to allow banks to challenge those deliberately inflating their childcare costs, while also looking for a big chunk of their debts to be written off.

No amount of money is set out for what is acceptable to spend on childcare, but guidelines say if this expense is needed, it has to be "reasonable".

They state that "where childcare is paid for, the reasonableness of this expense should be considered" by a personal insolvency practitioner drawing up a debt deal to be presented to a bank.

But the cost of childcare will have to reflect what it costs in the locality.

The guidelines do not allow for "private medical insurance, holiday costs, having more than one car and payment of discretionary items (such as voluntary donations)".

This could mean no money put into the basket for collections at Masses, and not donating spare coins into a Trocaire Lenten boxes.

Those who really want to contribute to their church or charity could take it out of the social inclusion part of the budget guidelines, one person familiar with the guidelines said.

This is allowed at €28.97 a week for one adult, and is listed as including sports activities and social events.

The guidelines in general set out what is a "reasonable standard of living" and explain that while this does not mean debtors should live in luxury, nor should people be forced to live at subsistence level.

The document states a number of times that the guidelines are not prescriptive, that there will be flexility, and that what is regarded as a "reasonable expense" will vary.

The 55-page booklet has been based on previous research by the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice, and other surveys of what constitutes a basic standard of living.

And the guide is clear that there has to be an incentive to stop people opting for social welfare instead of continuing to work when they are in a debt arrangement, which could last up to seven years.

"A reduction to the income level that an individual would have if he or she were to be unemployed and in receipt of social welfare could take away the incentive to go to work," it states

It gets better:


31 MARCH 2013

THE Insolvency Service of Ireland's guidelines on a reasonable standard of living and reasonable living expenses:


• €247.04 a month on food if you are a single working adult. The type of food is micro-managed. Guidelines specify a "balanced, nutritious diet", so ready meals and bottles of fizzy drinks are out.

• €35.73 a month on clothes and shoes – or €428.46 a year, so say goodbye to designer labels.

• A relatively generous €33.40 a month on shampoo, soap and hair and shower gels and whatever else is required to maintain one's personal hygiene. Blow dries and highlights become an unaffordable luxury.

• €31.09 a month, or €373 a year, on health, including over-the-counter medicines, plasters and antiseptics as well as dentist and optician bills and GPs.

• €31.47 for furniture, appliances and enough cleaning products for a single person living in a studio apartment in the city.

• €28.97 a week for "social participation" or going out with friends – roughly enough for five drinks in the local pub with change for a packet of crisps or a couple of trips to the cinema.

• €28.61 a month to cover household waste charges, an annual boiler service and having the chimney swept.

• If you live near a bus-stop or a train station, you'll have to ditch the car but will be allowed to spend up to €136.29 a month on public transport. Those who have to drive to work or to the shop can spend €240.13 a month on a car.

• €48.47 a month for electricity and €57.31 for heating. Private health insurance is gone, but you are allowed to pay up to €12.22 a month for home insurance.

• Holidays will be hard – a single person can save up to €5 a week for "emergencies" and "contingencies".

Enjoy your soap.
 
• €28.61 a month to cover household waste charges, an annual boiler service and having the chimney swept.

So thats 343.32 per year
Bins where i live cost €25 pm = 300
Oil boiler service = roughly €90
Chimney sweep 40 quid?
so thats 430 and i dont think any of those prices are high and yet there are only allowing 343?
 
If the option is open to the person in question they would have to be mad not to go the uk route
 
Indeed. This will do nothing to stop those going to the UK.

1 year in the UK or up to 7 years of hell in Ireland? I knows what I would do.
 
I heard a Mr Culloty head of Mabs on the RTE news at one. He was not to happy with the leaks and press coverage.

He said (and I paraphrase) that it would be a foolish creditor who would force an individual to give up long term employment for short term gain.

His other point was that this type of budgeting needed to be done on an annual basis in the first instance and that it should be broken down to monthly/weekly basis on an individual basis.
 
These are guidelines not law. Its the media driving a news story as usual.
 
Some of the guidelines do not seem reasonable for people in certain circumstances. For example if you have Diabetes or celiac disease etc you cannot eat the same diet as everyone else and in my experience the food can be a lot more expensive. The same applies to the Health expenses. I'm assuming (possibly incorrectly) that people will not be dealt with in a black and white fashion as currently happens with the banks staff.
What I find most disheartening about the Irish situation is the attitude of staff in the banks and the way they deal with people in debt. As if they are criminals. I know some people working in the mortgage arrears section of one of our Banks and their attitude to the people they are dealing with is appalling with no appreciation of the stress they are under. Its particularly bad if they have no big debts such as mortgages themselves. These are human beings in the banks and they speak of the people they are dealing with as if they are all trying to pull a fast one and they must not believe anything they tell them. That may be true of a few but certainly not of the majority.

Its very much an irish attitude that has prevailed in this country for decades. That's why the uk is so attractive for many people - their attitude is far more mature, healthier and more realistic and people working in the financial institutions do not make it a personal thing like they do here.
 
You should listen to Joe Duffy the past few days....himself and Ben Dunne are running a UK tourism guide! No dissenting callers allowed!!!
 
Have these guidelines been published yet or do we have to rely on leaks distorted by the lens of lazy journos and broadcast talk show hosts?
 
I have friends who live on welfare and benefits who have much more disposable income than this! This kind of very restricted expenditure is not going to help the country get back on track as no-one will be able to shop or spend anywhere.

This makes no allowances for someone who has close family in another country and would need to travel for a medical emergency or funeral etc

I wonder, if someone had a bit of cash and put it into studying for a course, before going insolvent, if they would have to force the institution to refund them?

So many questions and hopefully it will get resolved properly
 
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