question - sacking

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sun_sparks

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just looking for some advice.

I know a guy who has been working for 26 years in the service trade with the same company. One by one, various members of the original staff have been persuaded to leave over the past couple of years.

We have now found out that this guy is being sacked himself. He was issued with a verbal warning followed by 2 written warnings (funnily enough each 5 months and 3 weeks after the next) for bullying. (He doesn't deny arguing with people tho)

Trouble is he buried his head in the sand and didn't tell anyone about it until now.

It appears at first glance to be clear-cut. The employer followed all procedures to a tee. But it all seems quite neat to me - convenient.

I'm not looking for judgements here, please. I suppose I'm looking to see whether there's any recourse available to persuade the employer to let him have one last chance - he is prepared to attend a course, take unpaid leave to do this, etc. Had he admitted there was a problem a year ago, we could have helped.
 
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Arguing with people is not bullying. Bullying is a specific in it's nature. Was a bulllying complaint made against him by another employee.Did the company set up an investigation? Was the "guy" allowed someone to be present when warnings were issued. Was their a path of improvement agreed at during the warning meetings.Were the goals met
 
Have a look at this: [broken link removed]

Also, your question insinuates that the company are getting rid of older employees. This may be an issue that could be taken up. Is he in a union?
 
It's possible but unlikely that the employer will follow any of the routes you've suggested. Is your friend getting any payments to leave? How are they treating him for pension purposes. It's unfortunate that your friend ignored this, given the backround you've outlined it's possible they wanted him out anyway, but he has played right into their hands on this. He can always suggest any of these options to the employer, in the likely event of their refusing, I would suggest that he facilitates an orderly handover of his work, and it may well be that he will at least get a reference to start over again, not ideal I know.
 
Thanks for the advice.

hlm, you are right. We are all devastated that he did not come to us earlier - we would at least have advised him to consider taking a package to leave. At the moment, we are trying to ensure that he walks away with, at the very least, a good reference and some form of lump sum (although the latter looks unlikely).

Walfarite - he is in the union. The last member of the union in that place of employement. His union rep was none too pleased to be notified of the situation yesterday! (This just shows how deep he'd waded into this mire!)

Martinslan - thanks for the note about bullying. This is something we will chase up - I'm not 100% sure of the situation here, but I believe they weren't long-term accusations or anything similar. The two complainants have since left the company (but not due to this AFAIK).

Looks like it might all be too late though. Management meeting today and he might be told to just leave. We were hoping to have until Thursday at least...
 
Even if he does get the boot, it might be worth looking at legislation re unfair dismissals etc. I'm not well up on that stuff, but you'll get in online on the DETE site, I'd say...
 
Yeah, we've already been trawling through. Trouble is, seems like they've done this by the book - all warnings given, paperwork kept, etc.
 
Sun_sparks, have you actually seen the wording on these written warnings?
 
No - we are hoping to get access to these.

The guy involved "thinks" he remembers seeing the warnings and at least one of the written complaints. He was asked to sign and date something accepting the details. But to ask him these details now, he can't remember. (I would worry a little about his literacy levels, but that's another issue.)
 
The fact that the warnings were 5 months and 3 weeks apart would seem to suggest that they were contrived. Any independent 3rd party such as the Employment Appeals Tribunal would also view things this way. It does not matter if the company appears to follow the letter of the law by giving the appropriate number of warnings etc. The warnings themselves have to be fully justifiable. In this case they do not appear to be.
 
The fact he was in a union , and did not bother to seek advice seems very strange, as the fact he has not maintained documentation of past disiplinary procedures......

He does not seem to have an opinion either way, fairly non plussed on the issue, again strange for someone who is losing their job.

Apologies if I seem critical, just very little credible information on this dismissal procedure.

As for bullying, if it was severe he would have been given the boot quick, but this has taken 18 months to get to this stage seems fishy , why is this an issue now, after 26 years of employment.

My advice would be to get the Union heavily involved ( contact rep in job, also Union Offices, request a meeting , and sit down and discuss how case has gotten this far, would advise you to be present, your friend has not made a good job of this on his own).

State you will be appealing the warnings (normally given 7 days from letter arriving), and will be taking the matter to LRC / Labour Courts if neccessary.

Keep the thread updated, any specific questions , just pop them in bullet pointed.
 
Don;t forget that under Data Protection he has a right to see his HR file - this should include all the paperwork on the disciplinary matters - then you can take a view on whether the employer really has got a watertight case or not. If in doubt, take some advise - as crumdub12 says, make an appointment with a full time official or take legal advise. It is important to take action now - any compensation he may get after being fired will not fully make up for the dismissal
 
Hi all,

Just to update, he accepted a minimal pay-off, good reference and left last week. We asked would they consider offering redundancy but no way. He sat down with the union official, but he simply said he'd left it too late. Other ex-employees are taking action against this company, but are apparently getting nowhere, so we decided it best that he just accept what he could.

Crumdub, I agree that my friend buried his head in the sand. He's an older man, last one in the union in that company, quite isolated (works antisocial hours and no real friends outside the family, who he didn't want to tell), and tbh, was living in denial and a "dreamworld" that it would all sort itself out.

I don't know whether we'd have any recourse to appeal this, but it's more important at the moment that he can get another job. Small industry.
 
He may have some problems when he goes to sign on, given his attitude to all this, i'm afraid. They will ask him why he left the employment adn depending on his answers, and what the ex-employer tells them, he may lose out on upt to nine weeks benefit by disqualification. I think, if he allows it, one of his mates should attend with him when he makes his claim to try and explain situ. Maybe say that there is a possibility of case for unfair dismissal being taken ...this would help SW understand that all is not black and white in the matter. A chat with a sympathetic supervisor in the SW office would help greatly!
 
Just to let you know that he can still take a case up to 6 months after he leaves the company. If he has trouble finding work elsewhere, he should consider this. Having represented parties at the EAT on numerous occasions, I believe that he would certainly win his case if what you have stated here is accurate. The fact that he has got a payoff is irrelevant.
 
I agree with Art on this, he may have a case. Try http://WWW.FLAC.IE, and most solicitors in the Ind relations line work on "no win, no fee".

All the best with this, It sounds to me as if your friend has been victimised.

BTW, can you name the Union, I think their approach was very lazy.
 
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