Query re State contributory pension payment over the past 22 years.

leesider

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My father received a letter from the Social Welfare Services Office (the State pension department) about my mother's pension. There was a questionnaire with it to be completed and returned within 21 days. It's purpose is to see if my mother qualifies for the Contributory State Pension Increase.
She may be are in a bit of bother though because I think she has been receiving the non-contributory pension instead of the contributory pension.
My father has been receiving the contributory pension because he has paid income tax all his working life. I think my mother applied for the non-contributory pension but has not been paying tax because she retired years ago. It was 22 years ago when she applied so when she filled in the form she must have made a mistake or told a lie (I don't know which) saying that she didn't have any money in any accounts etc. She is not entitled to that pension now and has not been entitled to it in the 22 years before that either it seems.
So in the form it asks for details about bank account balances etc. My parents have three bank accounts with over €50000 in each of them (one in the soon-to-be defunct Ulster Bank, one in BOI and one in the Credit Union). But they are joint bank accounts and that is the cause of the problem. Her accountant said if we move all that money into two separate accounts (one in my mother's name and one in my father's name) and make sure that my mother's account has less than €20000 then we can then complete the from stating that and everything will be AOK. Her solicitor said that she can't really do that because that is committing fraud.
There is also an added issue in that my parent's own land and that is also in both their name's I think. I am now just wondering will the Department of Social Welfare attempt to claim back the pension that she claimed for the past 22 years and will the pension she gets from now on be reduced or terminated completely.
Her solicitor said if the former happens she could be liable to pay back a five figure or six figure sum. I know they have those three accounts with a fair bit of money in them but they may have to go into a retirement home at some stage in the future and that would be quite expensive. They are not flat broke, I accept that, I am not saying my mother should get away with not paying back something she was not entitled to in the first place (just in case someone attacks me for trying to get away with fraud). I just want to know is it likely she could be pursued for the pension she has been given? And will her future pension be affected. I'd pay the repayment myself if it was an amount I could afford, I have some money put away, there might be enough in there. I just don't want my parents to be fleeced, I'd like to know the likely amount.
 
Whatever about your parents being fleeced, what about the State being fleeced?

I think the Social Welfar can reclaim any pensions paid in error or wrongly - but not sure how far back they can go

The Revenue can go back as far as they want in the case of tax fraud
 
However if your mother wasn't entitled to the non contrib would your father have been entitled to a qualified dependent increase in his own pension for her? Wouldn't wipe all liability out but would have to be balanced against it.

A chat with Citizens Information maybe as to what her correct entitlements might have been, if you get the right person there they are very knowledgeable, not sure if you can still call to offices but maybe ring and ask for one of their social welfare experts and if you can go into an office to discuss it then all the better. It would be a good starting point.
 
when she filled in the form she must have made a mistake

It may well have been that she filled in the wrong form but this would most likely have been picked up by Social Welfare.

You could possibly check this out for yourself by signing her up for the mygovid.ie website and get a full access account which is quite easy to do. You can then print off a copy of her contributions over her working lifetime and this will indicate which pension she qualifies for (as to how different the qualifications were 22 years ago is another matter). Citizens' Information have the current information here.
 
It sounds as if you Mother did not fully understand the forms when she applied 22 years ago and now wants to regularise her position. At best she made a mistake.

All she needs to do is contact her social welfare office and explain her situation. And fill out the current form correctly. She has taken advice from her accountant, her solicitor, family and now the internet, so is aware her current payments may be inaccurate.

To accurately assess her non contributory state pension she needs to declare all assets belonging to herself and your father as they are a couple. Her accountant sounds as if he recommends she progress as a single person which she clearly is not. Her solicitor has said declare all joint savings and this is what she should do.

It sounds like she retired so maybe she had contributions to a contributory pension and would have been entitled to that which social welfare can assess. If she made an error/mistake on one form 22 years ago that lead to 22 years of over-payment then I am sure social welfare will work it out and assess the overpayment and how much they can recover in the future. If however they discover your mother filled out subsequent forms with the same error/mistake then they may take the view she was dileberatly misleading social welfare and could prosecute her.

With three saving accounts your parents are in a good position to repay the state if social welfare deem she owes them money which is good for all us citizens. How they go about that will depend on their rules and regulations, but you should not be surprised if they decide to ask for a cash settlement of your parents savings -€20K, and statements of recent transactions to ensure money was not moved out in advance.

The other good thing is that the state will cover the cost of nursing homes if your parents cannot afford it themselves.
 
It is unlikely that your mother would be entitled to an increase on your father's pension or a non contributory pension in her own right as both of these are means tested and it appears she has a good lot of cash and assetts.
If she has been outside the home in her earlier years she may have paid PRSI and therefore could have an entitlement to at least a part pension which could be set against any money owed.
I suggest you fill out the form as requested and perhaps add a note outlining the original error made many years ago
 
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