PTSB PTSB loses Ombudsman case - 200 other tracker customers to be compensated

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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47,305
I got some more information on this case.

It was not contested that the 3.25% rate was too high. (The Ombudsman has already dismissed this argument.)
The issue of what a "discounted tracker" means was not at issue. (The Ombudsman has already dismissed this argument.)

Special condition 9 said: " On expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be the then current ptsb tracker mortgage rate (comprising a certain percentage over the ECB rate) appropriate to the loan as may be varied in accordance with variations to the ECB rate."

The complainant was sent a rate options sheet in advance of the discount period ending.

The complainant chose the "LTV variable rate"

The rate options letter explained that if the borrower chose a fixed rate, they might not be offered a tracker rate when the fixed rate ended.

But the rate options letter did not explain the implications of choosing an "LTV variable rate"

The Ombudsman decided that if this had been explained, the borrower might have chosen the tracker, so he ordered that the tracker rate of ECB +3.25% be applied from the date the discounted period ended.

Brendan
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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47,305
Will you benefit from this decision?

To benefit from this decision you must meet two criteria
  1. you must have had special condition 9 " On expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be the then current ptsb tracker mortgage rate (comprising a certain percentage over the ECB rate) appropriate to the loan as may be varied in accordance with variations to the ECB rate."
  2. You must have chosen a variable rate at the end of the discounted period.
If you did not have this special condition, then this decision does not apply to you.

If you had this condition , but chose a fixed rate, this decision does not apply to you.

This thread is about this very specific permanent tsb issue. If you did not have this condition, then don't ask a question about your case in this thread - if you do, it will be deleted. Start a new thread.

Brendan
 
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Brendan Burgess

Founder
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47,305
Around mid 2008, ptsb changed the wording of Special Condition 9 to say :

“On expiry of the Discount Period, the interest rate will be such rate as may be selected by the Applicant(s) from the Permanent TSB rates then offered by Permanent TSB for selection by the Applicant(s) or such variable rate (which may not be a tracker variable rate) as will apply in the absence of such selection”.

So, if you have this wording, this Ombudsman decision does not help your case.

Brendan
 

Stitcher

Registered User
Messages
268
I have this clause but I had a +2.25% tracker rate option that was still higher than the variable rate on offer so I selected the variable under duress. The variable rates then started to rise above what the +2.25% tracker was. I was able to switch, unlike many others, and so I left to get a better rate.

I wonder how I will dealt with? as I'd have probably gone back on the tracker.
I'll have to go back and see what the rates were in the intervening period.
 

LTL1234

Registered User
Messages
44
Will you benefit from this decision?

To benefit from this decision you must meet two criteria
  1. you must have had special condition 9 " On expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be the then current ptsb tracker mortgage rate (comprising a certain percentage over the ECB rate) appropriate to the loan as may be varied in accordance with variations to the ECB rate."
  2. You must have chosen a variable rate at the end of the discounted period.
If you did not have this special condition, then this decision does not apply to you.

If you had this decision, but chose a fixed rate, this decision does not apply to you.

Brendan
Brendan if you meet both criteria but moved from PTSB to a different mortgage provider 1 year later (variable rates increased from 3.3% to 4.05%) does the overcharge apply to the year you were still with PTSB as per the ombudsman ruling or does it refer to the subsequent years also with a new mortgage provider?
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
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47,305
Hi LTL

No scheme of compensation has been put forward by ptsb yet, so we don't know.

Under the AIB Prevailing Rate scheme, AIB said it was not part of the Central Bank Tracker Mortgage Examination, so refused to apply the standards of that scheme.

I am sure that permanent tsb will try the same trick to save money.

Here is a case from ten years ago, where ptsb did take back a customer whom they had wrongly denied a tracker. There may be others on askaboutmoney.


permanent tsb should do the same, but they might try to get out of it.

So, if permanent tsb writes to you with a refund of €300 for the year's overcharge...

1) Complain to them in the first instance
  • ask them to recalculate it based on your new account. Send them your mortgage statements from the date you switched to date.
  • ask them to take you back on the tracker - At the end of the day, you probably won't avail of this offer if the margin is ECB + 3.25% , but you might go back if the tracker is 2.25% or lower. ( Check out this thread if and when you have a decision to make.)
2) If they refuse, you can go to the Ombudsman.

You will be complaining about the way it calculated the €300 refund, so your complaint will be new and will not be limited by the 6 years time limit.

Brendan
 
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Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
47,305
Here is another case where ptsb initially offered compensation just for the few months before the switch, but eventually the customer got all the excess interest refunded and was taken back to permanent tsb.



And another general thread dealing with the issue


Even though I say so myself, Askaboutmoney is a great resource for keeping a record of tracker issues so that people can arm themselves to take on the lenders. :)
 
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Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
47,305
The advice from thedaras who was the first to switch back to ptsb is very good.

I returned to PTSB and have been refunded all the monies owed to me.
A couple of things I have learned from all this:
Do not take their word for it;
Do not give up:
Do not act on information given on a website that may lead you to think you are not entitled to something,go for it anyway.
You need to gather all your documentation and keep it safe,I scanned all documents into a folder on my laptop.
Keep records.
You need a lot of time and energy and fight in you.
 

LTL1234

Registered User
Messages
44
Hi LTL

No scheme of compensation has been put forward by ptsb yet, so we don't know.

Under the AIB Prevailing Rate scheme, AIB said it was not part of the Central Bank Tracker Mortgage Examination, so refused to apply the standards of that scheme.

I am sure that permanent tsb will try the same trick to save money.

Here is a case from ten years ago, where ptsb did take back a customer whom they had wrongly denied a tracker. There may be others on askaboutmoney.


permanent tsb should do the same, but they might try to get out of it.

So, if permanent tsb writes to you with a refund of €300 for the year's overcharge...

1) Complain to them in the first instance
  • ask them to recalculate it based on your new account. Send them your mortgage statements from the date you switched to date.
  • ask them to take you back on the tracker - At the end of the day, you probably won't avail of this offer if the margin is ECB + 3.25% , but you might go back if the tracker is 2.25% or lower. ( Check out this thread if and when you have a decision to make.)
2) If they refuse, you can go to the Ombudsman.

You will be complaining about the way it calculated the €300 refund, so your complaint will be new and will not be limited by the 6 years time limit.

Brendan
Thank you Brendan.
I appreciate the clear instructions on how to proceed if needs be. We switched to EBS and stayed with that lender until we moved house 2 years ago. We have just recently entered into a fixed rate green mortgage of 2% so to reinstate a tracker is not the end goal but reimbursement of the additional interest paid up to this point is.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
47,305
If you traded up and switched from ptsb, you will get a refund only up until the time you traded up.

Some people have argued that they would not have traded up if they had a tracker, but to the best of my knowledge any such arguments have not been successful with the banks or the Ombudsman.

Brendan
 

LTL1234

Registered User
Messages
44
If you traded up and switched from ptsb, you will get a refund only up until the time you traded up.

Some people have argued that they would not have traded up if they had a tracker, but to the best of my knowledge any such arguments have not been successful with the banks or the Ombudsman.

Brendan
We technically traded down to a smaller suburban house but managed to get a good rate of 2.75% with Haven due to LTV. This was mainly down to the fact we used a redundancy pay out to reduce our mortgage twice in the 10 years with EBS to remove some of the pressure (again if we were on a tracker rate we would likely not have done this). That matter aside we paid excess interest on the house the original mortgage was on from 2009-2019.
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. As with PTSB to date, I suspect we will need to arm ourselves and fight.
 

Stitcher

Registered User
Messages
268
Referring to Brendan's first post, if PTSB has admitted another 200 are affected, how soon might we expect a letter? None received here yet. Has anyone received anything?
I wonder if the cohort who 'switched' are included in that 200 or will we have to apply separately?
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
47,305
Referring to Brendan's first post, if PTSB has admitted another 200 are affected, how soon might we expect a letter?

To be fair, it's a complex enough process. And it will be overseen by the Central Bank.

They have to identify all the accounts.
They should then write to people saying - "We have identified a problem and will be back in touch".

Doing all the calculations on each account will be complicated and timeconsuming.

Brendan
 

DonnaM

Registered User
Messages
16
Just wanted to update here. I received a letter from PTSB yesterday to say that my mortgage account is being reviewed in light of a decision by the FSPO. My current fixed rate was 3.25% and it has been reduced to 2.25%. PTSB also stated that they will write to me again in September to provide me with a progress so update so here's hoping everyone who is entitled to their tracker back gets it!!
 

PTSBCase

Registered User
Messages
86
Just wanted to update here. I received a letter from PTSB yesterday to say that my mortgage account is being reviewed in light of a decision by the FSPO. My current fixed rate was 3.25% and it has been reduced to 2.25%. PTSB also stated that they will write to me again in September to provide me with a progress so update so here's hoping everyone who is entitled to their tracker back gets it!!

Hi DonnaM,

Can you please confirm? Was the 3.25% rate a fixed or a tracker rate?
Is the 2.25% rate a fixed or a tracker rate?
Thanks
 
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