PTSB PTSB Fixed rate expired in 2009, should have been offered tracker??

pcocp

Frequent Poster
Messages
143
I have read here on AAM several times about people who came off fixed rate mortgages and were placed on standard variable rates, but were denied tracker rates which they were in fact entitled to, as per their contracts.

I have a mortgage with PTSB since May 2007, fixed initially for 2 years, which expired in May 2009. Since then I have been on the standard variable rate.

This morning I have found and read the paperwork I have from when the mortgage was taken out. This is the paperwork that was sent to me by the solicitor that handled the work at the time.

There are 2 references in the text that lead me to believe I was, and still am, entitled to a tracker rate.

These are:

(i) " On expiry of the fixed rate period, and where the applicant chooses the option of a tracker mortgage interest rate, the interest rate applicable to the loan will be the tracker mortgage rate appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan at the date of expiry of the fixed rate period. In the absence of instructions from the applicant at the expiry of the fixed rate period, the interest rate for the loan will be the tracker mortgage rate. "

(ii) The rate is fixed for 2 years. At the end of the fixed rate period you may exercise an option to contract for another fixed rate period (if available) or to move to the standard variable rate or to a tracker mortgage rate.

I enquired re my entitlement to a tracker in May 2009 and was refused outright.

So, my question now is:

- Was/Am I entitled to the tracker rate
- If so, what rate exactly, i.e. ECB + x%
- I assume the rates from May 2009 are what I should have been given
- What were the tracker options from PTSB in May 2009
- How do I approach dealing with this situation

Many thanks in advance for your opinions,

PCOCP.
 
Last edited:

twofor1

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,279
Permanent TSB have previously ‘‘mistakenly’’ placed people on standard variable rates at the end of fixed rate periods. Have you seen this article from last August ?

http://www.thepost.ie/news/ireland/permanent-tsb-to-issue-refunds-for-misclassified-mortgage-holders-51227.html

It looks to me like you should have been offered a tracker at the rate applicable to your outstanding balance in May 2009.

Is it possible they had stopped offering trackers before May 2009 ?

If so there would not be a tracker rate applicable to your outstanding balance.

As no specific margin above ECB is quoted, they could simply offer you ECB + 10% if you insisted on a tracker as per your entitlement, but you should have been offered a tracker.

I would start by writing to your branch stating you should have been offered a tracker and asking what the relevant rate was at the time.
 

pcocp

Frequent Poster
Messages
143
Thanks for the link, interesting reading. It doesn't state however, when those people who took out fixed rate loans in 2006, when their fixed rates expired, i.e. after 2 or 3 years.

The question is then, what tracker rates, if any, were on offer in May 2009.

If tracker rates were not on offer in May 2009, surely PTSB had to have some provision in place for those customers who were entitled to a tracker rate when their fixed rate expired after trackers were no longer available ?? It is in the contract after all.

They might very well offer me ECB +10% now, but the situation in May 2009 is what matters here.

If anyone can provide me with May 2009 rates or a link to them I'd appreciate it.

PCOCP.
 

Brendan Burgess

Founder
Messages
38,125
You should have been offered a tracker rate.

If they were not offering tracker rates at that time, then I would suggest that a fair answer would be that the tracker rate be back-calculated from their Standard Variable Rate.

So let's say that their SVR in May 2009 was 3%, then that would be ECB + 2%.

However, you could go further and argue that you should get the tracker rate which was on offer at the time you took out the mortgage. So, if you would have qualified for a tracker of ECB + 1%, you should seek this.

If they refuse - I would feel that the Financial Services Ombudsman would offer you ECB + 2% at least.

Check out the Ombudsman's case studies and annual report to see if he has pronounced on this specific topic.

Brendan
 

pcocp

Frequent Poster
Messages
143
Thanks for the reply Brendan.

I will approach the bank manager during the week and see what the reaction is.

I can't find historical mortgage rates online at all, so if anyone can post them here I'd appreciate it.

I will look into the financial services ombudsman also.

PCOCP.
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
I'm pretty sure I had the same wording. I came off a fixed in May 2010 and was offered a ECB +3.25% tracker
 

thedaras

Frequent Poster
Messages
813
I am coming off a 5year fixed rate with PTSB ,ending 31st oct..

I have heard nothing from them as to what options are available..yet.

I have seen on some posts where there are some people who were automatically put onto a tracker (obviously this was an option on their original contract),.

Apart from asking for a copy of the contract, how would I know if this option would be/should be, available to me?
Ie; Why was it an option for some people? Did you have to ask for that option to be put in the contract?

My fixed rate was taken out in October 2005, would it have been a normal enough option to have on a contract around this time?
Thanks in advance..
 

thedaras

Frequent Poster
Messages
813
Brendan Burgess
Some fixed rate mortgages specified that when the rate finished, you would go onto a tracker rate of x% above ECB. You don't have that.
The above I found on another thread..
And this is my question, would anyone know why some fixed rate mortgages specified you would go onto a tracker rate of a certain percent and some didn't?
 
I

iMax

Guest
Sorry to revive a seemingly zombie thread.

I'm interested to find out how people made out with this, as I've just discovered I'm in the exact same position & am quite angry about it. I'm currently writing to the PTSB's customer service dept to establish exactly what happened.

We were put on a variable rate of 4.05% back in 2009, we all know what it has rinse to. Many thousands in extra interest payments have gone to them when this could have been coming off my principle.
 

kaza

Frequent Poster
Messages
175
Hi iMax,
Did you finish out your fixed term? If so you probably have a very good case. In my case I broke out of my fixed term 6 months early based on their advise telling me I wasn't entitled to Tracker at the end of fixed and I could break out at no penality and get a slightly lower rate (that the fixed rate I had) by swtiching to variable.

So I did this - but turns out my terms and conditions state "at the end of a fixed period the mortgagor can revert to tracker....." - now PTSB have said to me I broke out of my fixed term so hence those terms and conditions do not apply to me because I did not reach the end of my fixed rate. They have said if I did I would get a Tracker now - it happened with my friend, she got her Tracker back and she also got a lump sum of any extra payments she had made in interest.

I have a case with the Ombudsman at the moment because I feel angry that the only reason I broke the fixed term was on their incorrect advise.

But if your terms and conditions state something similar and you seen out the end of your fixed rate then get straight onto them. They are a nightmare to deal with and each person (from my experience) tells you something different. So I would write a letter straight away to:

Ms Margaret Cotter
Manager PTSB,
Customer Relations Dept,
Churchyard Lane,
Douglas,
Co. Cork

From my experience you are wasting your time going into the branch or ringing Customer Service - write a letter to the above stating your terms and conditions and that you want to revert to Tracker.

Let us know how you get on.
 
I

iMax

Guest
Thanks for the reply kaza. I'm in the process of writing to them to ask for copies of all documentation.

We wrote to them in 2009 toward the end of our term asking for the best available flexible rate, they immediately put us onto variable (tracker is flexible too). I think, but am not 10% that we were responding to a phone call rather than a letter advising us our fixed was due to expire.

I asked them for a copy of the letter they sent & I received our letter back which is stamped "Refusal Letter Sent". We didn't refuse anything, because we weren't offered anything.

On three occasions I've called asking for a copy of the letter we allegedly refused & none has been forthcoming.

I've been told on two occasions that they sent out letters back in 2009 which "accidentally" omitted the tracker option, but I didn't receive one of these (& going by their lack of response, was never sent one).

I've just completed a letter to them asking for a final response which will enable me to go to the ombudsman at that point. I feel very aggrieved that we could have had a tracker & have been misled or deceived by omission.
 

Fedupwtbs

Frequent Poster
Messages
58
I have the same wording in the special conditions section of my PTSB contract.
When we drew down our mortgage IN 2006 the ECB rate was 3.25. On expiry of the 3 years fixed in 2009 the ECB was 1%. PTSB offered us a tracker rate of 4.25 which was ECB (at the time we drew down the mortgage) + 1%. The SVR was cheaper and we foolishly took it.

Wondering perhaps if we should have being offered a tracker based on the rate in 2009 after reviewing the condition below which would have meant a rate of ECB + 1%. ECB IN 2009 was 1% resulting in a rate of 2%.


TAKEN FROM MY CONTRACT WITH PTSB

Special Condition A.
General mortgage loan approval condition 5 conditions relating to fixed rate loans applies in this case. The interest rate specified above May vary before the date of issue of the loan. On expiry of the fixed rate period, and where the applicant chooses the option of a tracker mortgage interest rate, the interest rate applicable to the loan will be the tracker mortgage rate appropriate to the balance outstanding on the loan at the date of expiry of the fixed rate period.
 

STEINER

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,137
They offered you a tracker rate at ECB +3.25% when the fixed rate period ended and you accepted this. It was the current ECB rate, not the historical one, which is correct.
 

Fedupwtbs

Frequent Poster
Messages
58
Yes you are correct Steiner. I read my contract wrong. In 2009 I would have being given the correct ECB rate which was 1%.

I guess my beef is why PTSB can offer a margin of 3.25 when they were offering margins of 1% in 2006. There seems to be a lot of variances between PTSB mortgages - some with margins stated in the contract and some that had no margin so when the fixed expired the bank had us over a barrel
 
Top