Proper fines for people not paying their tolls

Cremeegg,

For the absolute avoidance of doubt, when I mentioned "can't pay" I meant it in it's true sense.

You are correct with your reference to the secured lending business, but part of that is the Banks fault for not going after those borrowers who can pay, but won't.

Anyone worth their salt would go through a person's bank statements and credit card statements thoroughly, then even go and hire a private investigator, before accepting that a person genuinely can't pay. It's not hard to see what cars are in a driveway, what schools the kids are going to, what the people are doing socially etc. Anyone found to be telling lies should be dealt with most severely.

I'm all for helping those who really need help, but punishing those that don't and have elected to do wrong.
 
Delboy said:
From listening to Paddy O'Gorman's coverage of the Courts on the Sean O'Rourke show every week, it appears that only a tiny minority are actually stupid enough to pay the fines imposed.
Most are driven to jail, registered, given a meal and a bus ticket back to whence they came. All on the same day. It's seen as a day out by many.
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A lot of those cases that Paddy O'Gorman covers about women being brought up to Mountjoy for a day seems a total waste of time for me. The amount of police time, court time, legal time, prison time, for a fine of a couple of hundred. And people who clearly can't pay. Crazy stuff.
 
Bronte said:
A lot of those cases that Paddy O'Gorman covers about women being brought up to Mountjoy for a day seems a total waste of time for me. The amount of police time, court time, legal time, prison time, for a fine of a couple of hundred. And people who clearly can't pay. Crazy stuff.
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That does seem crazy, but nor should they get a free pass to avoid any laws or regulations or contracts to which there are fines attached ... There have to be consequences for all citizens.
 
The fines should come out of any welfare payments they get, all to be collected in 12 months max.
That would focus a few minds
 
Bronte said:
A lot of those cases that Paddy O'Gorman covers about women being brought up to Mountjoy for a day seems a total waste of time for me. The amount of police time, court time, legal time, prison time, for a fine of a couple of hundred. And people who clearly can't pay. Crazy stuff.
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As they say in The Wire, it's all part of 'the game'
 
odyssey06 said:
That does seem crazy, but nor should they get a free pass to avoid any laws or regulations or contracts to which there are fines attached ... There have to be consequences for all citizens.
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Free pass, the people Paddy talks to don't get no free pass. Seem like desperate people to me. Most of them didn't pay as they had other priorities like food and clothing. I see no point hounding such people, particularly when it means it will cost taxpayers for the expense of the revolving door in Mountjoy and the added stress to the families involved.
 
Delboy said:
The fines should come out of any welfare payments they get, all to be collected in 12 months max.
That would focus a few minds
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You can't take it out of welfare as welfare is at a minimum level to live on. It would also costs a lot to administer. Only person ending up paying then is the taxpayer. Unless you had a streamlined system and you'd dock someone say a fiver a week for a year until the TV licence fine or whatever was paid off.
 
Bronte said:
Free pass, the people Paddy talks to don't get no free pass. Seem like desperate people to me. Most of them didn't pay as they had other priorities like food and clothing. I see no point hounding such people, particularly when it means it will cost taxpayers for the expense of the revolving door in Mountjoy and the added stress to the families involved.
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I'm not sure where you are going with this, do we exempt them from all legislation and laws where fines can be used as punishment?

Does Paddy talk to people whose fines are for road traffic offences? Littering? Public order offences?
The desperate people you describe don't seem to be the kind of person who racks up hundreds of unpaid tolls on a motorway?

What if the reason they were fined is because their behaviour was causing stress to other people???

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...ffences/public_order_offenses_in_ireland.html
 
odyssey06 said:
I'm not sure where you are going with this, do we exempt them from all legislation and laws where fines can be used as punishment?

Does Paddy talk to people whose fines are for road traffic offences? Littering? Public order offences?
The desperate people you describe don't seem to be the kind of person who racks up hundreds of unpaid tolls on a motorway?

What if the reason they were fined is because their behaviour was causing stress to other people???
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The problem with increasingly burdensome laws and regulations is that there is a significant minority of vulnerable people out there whom are barely able to cope with the attendant responsibilities to society, owing to mental or physical ill-health, intellectual weaknesses, or other difficulties.

The more such laws and regulations are imposed, the more these people will struggle. Even an apparently routine chore like having an NCT done can drive certain people to literal despair.

The M50 toll system is grand for the 95% of us who are fortunate enough to to have basic self-organisational skills, not so good for those who lack them.
 
T McGibney said:
Even an apparently routine chore like having an NCT done can drive certain people to literal despair.
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Should such people be driving ? Surely if someone lacks basic self-organisation skills to the extent that getting the NCT drives them to literal despair, they are unlikely to be suitable to be in charge of a ton of metal going at 50kph.
 
cremeegg said:
Should such people be driving ? Surely if someone lacks basic self-organisation skills to the extent that getting the NCT drives them to literal despair, they are unlikely to be suitable to be in charge of a ton of metal going at 50kph.
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So if someone suffers episodes of depression they shouldn't be driving, even though they have passed the same test and have the same licence and insurance as you and I? Maybe we should go back decades and start locking them up in secure institutions? Nice social empathy there. :mad:
 
MrEarl said:
Cremeegg,

For the absolute avoidance of doubt, when I mentioned "can't pay" I meant it in it's true sense.
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But there is no generally accepted definition of "can't pay". Does it mean that someone doesn't have the money, or would you include someone who doesn't have the money for the fine and food, or would you allow that and draw the line at someone who doesn't have the money for the fine and food and clothes. And shoes and schoolbooks, and a doctors appointment.

There is no such thing as "can't pay" in it's true sense. Just different standards.


MrEarl said:
Anyone worth their salt would go through a person's bank statements and credit card statements thoroughly, then even go and hire a private investigator, before accepting that a person genuinely can't pay. It's not hard to see what cars are in a driveway, what schools the kids are going to, what the people are doing socially etc. Anyone found to be telling lies should be dealt with most severely.
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That would cost far more than most fines.
 
A day in the "audience" of a district court is very educational.
You'll see lots of people who don't have the skills (social or educational) to function and interact with mainstream society.
 
T McGibney said:
So if someone suffers episodes of depression they shouldn't be driving, even though they have passed the same test and have the same licence and insurance as you and I? Maybe we should go back decades and start locking them up in secure institutions? Nice social empathy there. :mad:
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I find the process of getting an NCT stressful, though not to the point of literal despair. It seems to me that someone who does might also find the stresses of driving, traffic, lights, drivers that cut you up, people busy putting on lipstick etc. so stressful that they would be a danger to themselves and others.

There isn't much social empath in allowing people perform tasks that are beyond them.
 
Purple said:
A day in the "audience" of a district court is very educational.
You'll see lots of people who don't have the skills (social or educational) to function and interact with mainstream society.
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Some of these people are that way because nothing has ever been demanded of them. It is common in schools to see less demanded of kids who come from what the teachers see as difficult backgrounds. It kind of stands in their way of achieving.
 
cremeegg said:
Should such people be driving ? Surely if someone lacks basic self-organisation skills to the extent that getting the NCT drives them to literal despair, they are unlikely to be suitable to be in charge of a ton of metal going at 50kph.
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What if they are among the 18% of adults who are functionally illiterate? Given that in 2009 1 in 5 15 year old boys was functionally illiterate (the most recent data I could find) I don't see that figure improving any time soon.
That doesn't mean they can't drive but it does make form filling difficult.
 
cremeegg said:
I find the process of getting an NCT stressful, though not to the point of literal despair. It seems to me that someone who does might also find the stresses of driving, traffic, lights, drivers that cut you up, people busy putting on lipstick etc. so stressful that they would be a danger to themselves and others.

There isn't much social empath in allowing people perform tasks that are beyond them.
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Nor in your setting yourself up to abitrarily judge these people.
 
Purple said:
What if they are among the 18% of adults who are functionally illiterate? Given that in 2009 1 in 5 15 year old boys was functionally illiterate (the most recent data I could find) I don't see that figure improving any time soon.
That doesn't mean they can't drive but it does make form filling difficult.
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Yes it all starts in school.

I dont recall there being many forms to be filled in connection with the NCT
 
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