Problem Tenant - is selling up the path of least resistance?

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Pearl

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I posted in June about a problem tenant and was advised that it's almost impossible to have a tenant evicted on the grounds of "anti-social behaviour". I sent a warning letter last year and am ready to proceed with an eviction notice. I feel I have to assume the tenant will take the case to the PRTB, drag it out etc. The management agent is telling me that the people living around the property believe there is drug dealing going on there, that there is constant partying and constant disturbance of the neighbours' "peaceful enjoyment" of their homes - and I keep asking for something more concrete that I can quote as I am really wary of proceeding with something that will fall apart when it hits the PRTB. I am working on getting that concrete info from one of the neighbours this week. This tenant was placed by DCC, who pay the rent to me directly - but who wash their hands of any involvement in a resolution. It's between me, the tenant, and the PRTB.

An alternative way forward would be to put the property up for sale. There is about 200K left on the mortgage and I think I'd get between 290 and 300K for it. I have to pay about 3K in tax and about 2.5K in management fees. However, selling would require 6 months notice as tenant has been there for almost 6 years. 6 months of torturing the neighbours. It would be a definite end though - and I wouldn't have to worry about going to court etc. I feel awful that I am responsible for the other residents suffering. On the one hand, I am tired of it all - tired of how DCC has zero standards or accountability for social tenants and think I just want rid. On the other hand, I don't want to let their behavior dictate such a huge financial decision. Having guaranteed rent gives great peace of mind. I had planned to hold onto it for another 2 years before this came to a head. I am in contract with DCC for another 2 years. I could get the tenant out, and they could place a new set of degenerates there, or I could be lucky.

What would you do?

Thanks in advance,

Pearl
 
You're quickest route is eviction based on anti social activity. That might be hard to prove. A normal eviction, will take up to 2yrs.

But you will find it impossible to sell with a tenant there. As banks much prefer vacant possession for mortgages.
 
Pearl said:
I posted in June about a problem tenant and was advised that it's almost impossible to have a tenant evicted on the grounds of "anti-social behaviour". I sent a warning letter last year and am ready to proceed with an eviction notice. I feel I have to assume the tenant will take the case to the PRTB, drag it out etc. The management agent is telling me that the people living around the property believe there is drug dealing going on there, that there is constant partying and constant disturbance of the neighbours' "peaceful enjoyment" of their homes - and I keep asking for something more concrete that I can quote as I am really wary of proceeding with something that will fall apart when it hits the PRTB. I am working on getting that concrete info from one of the neighbours this week. This tenant was placed by DCC, who pay the rent to me directly - but who wash their hands of any involvement in a resolution. It's between me, the tenant, and the PRTB.

An alternative way forward would be to put the property up for sale. There is about 200K left on the mortgage and I think I'd get between 290 and 300K for it. I have to pay about 3K in tax and about 2.5K in management fees. However, selling would require 6 months notice as tenant has been there for almost 6 years. 6 months of torturing the neighbours. It would be a definite end though - and I wouldn't have to worry about going to court etc. I feel awful that I am responsible for the other residents suffering. On the one hand, I am tired of it all - tired of how DCC has zero standards or accountability for social tenants and think I just want rid. On the other hand, I don't want to let their behavior dictate such a huge financial decision. Having guaranteed rent gives great peace of mind. I had planned to hold onto it for another 2 years before this came to a head. I am in contract with DCC for another 2 years. I could get the tenant out, and they could place a new set of degenerates there, or I could be lucky.

What would you do?

Thanks in advance,

Pearl
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Someone still has to evict the tenant, and technically it should be the vendor. A buyers solicitor probably won't sign the documentation if there is a tenant in situ who isn't indicating a willingness to move out.
 
AlbacoreA said:
You're quickest route is eviction based on anti social activity.
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I think it's the opposite.


Anti-social behaviour (ASB) is vague and it is very hard to find an example where the RTB accepts a landlord's claims of anti-social activity (I looked once). A tenant could fight this at the RTB which could drag on.

You can end a tenancy clearly and unambiguously if you intend to sell the property. A tenant could overhold of course, but this could happen if you try the ASB route too.

@Pearl - if you want to go the ASB route you will probably need written, detailed evidence from neighbours outlining the ASB. The simpler option would be to sell up of course.
 
How can you sell with a tenant in place?

I presume that they have wrecked the place.

They won't facilitate viewings.

You can knock the price down by 10% if you try to sell with a tenant.

So the question is : What is the fastest way to get the tenants out?

1) ASB ?
2) Give notice as you want to sell the property?

Can you do both at the same time?

Brendan
 
Pearl said:
The management agent is telling me that the people living around the property believe there is drug dealing going on there, that there is constant partying and constant disturbance of the neighbours' "peaceful enjoyment" of their homes
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Tell the agent that any suspicion of illegal activity should be reported to the Gardai. Evidence of such reports and follow up may assist.
 
You can say you need the property for your own use, but you can't rent it again for 12 months.

You'll likely want to redecorate etc anyway.
 
Pearl said:
I am in contract with DCC for another 2 years.
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Is there any way to break the contract with DCC - i.e would they let you break it for a set penalty fee maybe, given the circumstances ?
They would have to rehouse them somewhere else and you'd be left with a tenant free house to sell. Might be worth discussing with them, even if it is a long shot
 
do you have any right to inspect the property?
If they've wrecked the place presumably you can evict on that basis?

other than that, I'd say it's a problem for the neighbours and the mgmt co. If they can prove ASB, ask for the proof and start proceedings. If they can't prove it then then it's their problem not yours.
 
I wouldn't be selling with tenant in situ. I refer to selling solely as a method of removing the tenant - as in I issue 6 months notice as required by law and she has to get out before the end of that 6 months. Then, I put it on the market. The PRTB says I can end a tenancy for the purpose of sale as reflected in NoRegretsCoyote's response above. The question of whether I can issue 28 days notice for eviction based on ASB *and* notice to quit due to sale of property is an interesting one. I am thinking maybe I should issue the 28 days notice for ASB first (I could give her more time - like 45 days and only issue it *if* the neighbours can provide evidence that would stand up), and if tenant fights it with the PRTB, I could then issue the notice to quit because of sale of property. Leo - regarding serious issues being reported to the Gardai, there *was* a drug raid on the apartment last year. So I thought great, now I will have my evidence. I phoned the local Gardai station who told me I could get the details via e-mail under the freedom of information act. Well, I sent an e-mail and was refused any information regarding that incident as it related to an individual. So I have no idea what they found that night. I am loathe to sell before I feel ready because of scumbag behaviour like this. But then we could go to PRTB and they end up "winning" the right to stay there.
 
When the DCC contract ends in 2 years - just say the tenant refuses to go then - who is responsible then for ensuring the tenant leaves at that stage? Is this contingency set out in the contract you entered into?
 
Pearl said:
I phoned the local Gardai station who told me I could get the details via e-mail under the freedom of information act.
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You might be able to find out (by now) if the tenant has a criminal conviction relating to sale of drugs. That would bolster your case for ending tenancy on ASB grounds. Try and find out who the investigating guard is and see if you can speak to them. You will get nothing via FoI, they were only putting you off.

But if tenants fight it with the RTB on ASB grounds it could take 6-9 months if they take it to adjudication. I am not sure if you can initiate notice on other grounds while they are fighting it on ASB grounds.

If you really want to be rid of her just claim you need it back for own use. This is impossible to fight at the RTB. Once you have gained occupancy put bills in your name. You would take a hit of 12 months rent before you can let it again, or you could sell.

My gut feeling is that trying to end this on ASB grounds is going to be very difficult for you.
 
deanpark said:
When the DCC contract ends in 2 years - just say the tenant refuses to go then - who is responsible then for ensuring the tenant leaves at that stage? Is this contingency set out in the contract you entered into?
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I would be responsible. DCC put a person in from their list and wash their hands of the tenant at that stage.
 
The tenant might react better to you needing needing to sell or needing to move in rather than trying to evict them on asb grounds.

I imagine nobody enjoys The process during which they are proven to be problematic citizens in front of friends, family, neighbors.

The ASB route might result in worse behavior it damage?
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
You might be able to find out (by now) if the tenant has a criminal conviction relating to sale of drugs. That would bolster your case for ending tenancy on ASB grounds. Try and find out who the investigating guard is and see if you can speak to them. You will get nothing via FoI, they were only putting you off.

But if tenants fight it with the RTB on ASB grounds it could take 6-9 months if they take it to adjudication. I am not sure if you can initiate notice on other grounds while they are fighting it on ASB grounds.

If you really want to be rid of her just claim you need it back for own use. This is impossible to fight at the RTB. Once you have gained occupancy put bills in your name. You would take a hit of 12 months rent before you can let it again, or you could sell.

My gut feeling is that trying to end this on ASB grounds is going to be very difficult for you.
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Yes, my gut feeling is telling me the same thing. Alas, I could never afford a hit of 12 months rent. The rent is what pays the mortgage on it.

What are your thoughts on me putting it up for sale and then the sale falling through and me renting it again? That would still result in a hit of 2 to 3 months rent minimum though. In terms of rent, I'd lose less money via the ASB route as DCC will continue to pay as long as the tenant is present.

Maybe I should follow Shweeney's advice above - "if the management company can prove ASB, ask for the proof and start proceedings. If they can't prove it then then it's their problem not yours."

I'll be talking to one of the neighbours tomorrow. I'll see what he can provide in terms of evidence and take it from there.
 
misemoi said:
Could you approach dcc and offer to sell to them with tenant Insitu?
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Yes, I did think of selling to DCC, but I think it would be kinder to the neighbours to sell privately. DCC are so clueless when it comes to multi-unit developments. If they charged some sort of nominal management fee, there might be some respect for common areas - but they don't.
 
Pearl said:
What are your thoughts on me putting it up for sale and then the sale falling through and me renting it again? That would still result in a hit of 2 to 3 months rent minimum though. In terms of rent, I'd lose less money via the ASB route as DCC will continue to pay as long as the tenant is present.
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You have to make a statutory declaration that you intend to sell and then put it on the market.

If it does not sell the landlord:

is obliged to offer the tenant an opportunity to re-let the property if they do not sell it within 9 months
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But there is a catch, it's only if:

the tenant has provided their contact details in writing to the landlord within 28 days of receipt of the notice of termination.
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NoRegretsCoyote said:
I think it's the opposite.


Anti-social behaviour (ASB) is vague and it is very hard to find an example where the RTB accepts a landlord's claims of anti-social activity (I looked once). A tenant could fight this at the RTB which could drag on.

You can end a tenancy clearly and unambiguously if you intend to sell the property. A tenant could overhold of course, but this could happen if you try the ASB route too.

@Pearl - if you want to go the ASB route you will probably need written, detailed evidence from neighbours outlining the ASB. The simpler option would be to sell up of course.
Click to expand...

Oh I agree. I just meant technically its the fastest route. But as you have explained in the real world it just doesn't work.
 
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