Probate Charges - Reality Check please

quarterfloun

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I have edited this post as it used inflammatory language which obscured an important question - Brendan

My solicitor (who I inherited after mum died) is putting in a bill in the high €20K bracket. He is handling the sale of the house and the probate and wrote out a will for me.
Is he on a percentage or something? I can't see how a bit of paperwork can amount to this.

I will be asking for an itemised bill but this is ridiculous. I'm sure he is no more expensive than any other of those solicitors out there
Any comments welcome.
 
Did the solicitor in question provide any up-front estimate of the costs involved?
 
Sorry,

I was just well wound up by the charges. Unfortunately, as I said we inherited the solicitor from our parents. No fees were discussed as we were both out of the country and did not have time to "shop around" for a cheap solicitor and as my dad was in the financial arena we unconciously assumed we were being looked after.

The estate was one house, one bank account, one credit union account and 1 post office account.

To me that is not rocket science collecting the account money and we have done all the estate agent work to add to the bank accounts.

From there it is fill a form or two in and hey presto job done. There was no contesting, no nothing just straightforward disposal of one asset and the accounts.


Would a Doctor working out how many years you have left then dividing those by the amount of money you earn and charging a %age of that per visit stay in business. It seems to be a load of humbug that you can "take a slice of the pie" rather than charge per hour.

And also know this was not dealt with by the solicitor but one of his lesser paid minions so even at a hypothetical €1000 an hour how can filling in a few forms take 36 hours?
A more reasonable rate for form filling would be €50 an hour and maybe €350 an hour should "advice" be needed (I earn 400 a week and feed a family of four).
This is all hypothetical until I find out how charges are broken down (will this cost me more if I ask) but I really would like to know is how this is normally broken down / worked out / costs.
 
I've also tried getting a solicitor to "quote me" for the job....when he asked what the value of the house was I asked him why he needed to know as all I wanted done was the probate and explained it was all straight forward, freehold house, no mortgage and money in the banks....all I wanted doing was the probate....."ah well I don't think I want to do it" was the reply....

Is this because I fronted him about the value of the estate and he was not interested cos he would only get paid per hour?
 
Hi there - I guess 'market pricing' rules will apply, and you might need to spend some time with the Golden Pages to get someone to quote you a flat fee for this work. I have heard solicitors comment that a) choosing a solicitor (or other professional advisor) solely on the basis of cheapest price may not always be the smartest approach, and b) the reason for the percentage fee is that the level of risk is proportional to the estate size, rather than the level of work for them - make what you wish of that. See this thread for more information.

There is a lesson learnt here for all that you really need to agree costs up-front with all professionals, even in difficult circumstances like probate work.
 
I was not after a flat fee - I was trying to work out how much county town non specialist solicitors charge per hour....give or take. I do not expect anyone to say that will be X for the entire service - that would be unfair to the service provider if he hits problems.

What is the problem in saying "I charge X an hour, I expect it to take 10 hours and if it goes over that we will talk...."

Why are these people so evasive?

I have no problems in paying for a service and cheap is not what I want but if I see a fridge on the internet for 500 then I look locally for the same fridge and pay accordingly.....a bit more for a local personal service.

Having looked at the posts you pointed me to it seems the whole thing is typically Irish....back of a fag packet mathematics. How can anyone charge so much and then discount it to 1200? There is no logic.
 
"but I would be interested to hear someone like a solicitor put up a stronger defence of the practice."

Hi Rd;

I think you will find that most of the solicitors who post on AAM would not put up too strong a defence of percentage charging. The reality is that there is a change of outlook in the legal profession- I would say the dividing line in the profession is somewhere in the mid 40's. Those older than this are more inclined to bill mainly by reference to the value of a transaction (that being what was relatively normal when they started out). Those younger are more inclined to analyse profitability on all transactions - potentially competing on price in some areas but declining work in others, or charging what seems like an awful lot relative to the value of the transaction

I give a standard example of this to clients of mine when we have detailed fee discussions: I once bought a field for €2,000,000.00 and charged €1,200 plus V.A.T. because it was the most straightforward transaction I had all year. For the same client, I had an employment appeal case a few months later. On the second day of hearing we settled for €1,000 and I charged €6,000.00 plus V.A.T. (the client acknowledged that I had earned every penny, and I had). Now, the older partners in my firm would have been shocked at my failure to properly charge (as they would see it) on the land transaction BUT (and this is what people often forget) the same "old fogies" would have been even more shocked at what they would have considered blatant overcharging on the E.A.T. case.

The same client will soon be paying me in excess of €10k (possibly in excess of €20k) for a transaction which never went ahead (and I will have earned every cent). An older solicitor would possibly waive such a fee on the basis that he would charge when the client did buy something (but would then charge a percentage).

The percentage\value based method of charging is certainly less transparent and less efficient, but it is not necessarily true that it always works out dearer for the client - it is a common characteristic of such billing practices that there is very heavy cross subsidisation, with some work being done at a large fee, while other jobs are not properly charged for.

I will say, however, that even with all things otherwise being equal, any solicitor asked to give an estimate for administering a €1m estate is unlikely to give exactly the same estimate as he would give for administering a €300k estate. That is the free market at work. Long live the free market.
 
MOB

That's a very helpful insight into the whole area.

I think this answers the original question, so I am closing the thread.

Brendan
 
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