Probate - bank account

[MonyMony]

Hi everyone,

Bear with me on this...

An elderly family member has passed away. No will and no wife or kids, so probate will involve distributing his (small) estate among the family. He had been in a nursing home, so the fair deal scheme will be part of the whole process in some way. His estate is essentially the few quid he was getting from a UK pension (the Irish one was swallowed up by the fair deal scheme).

As he had never had a bank account another (elderly) family member had for many years designated one of their savings accounts as the place for the monthly pension payments to be deposited. They had also generously paid most of his bills (it's a long story) when he was living at home but done so out of their own current account. Now I'm helping out a bit with everything and can see that they made transfers (a few thousand) from that savings account to their current one every few years - I assume it was to cover any bills and expenses that they had paid for him out of the current, but there's no clear references to anything and they can't remember what they were for! (my guess is they had totted up loads of stuff and done 'bulk' transfers). It got very confusing for them, so in 2023 they actually transferred back a few grand because they thought one of the previous very big transfers was a mistake...but I actually think they're now down money!

So my question is how would a bank account like this be treated in probate (it's not an account in the deceased's name)? How closely will they look back at transactions? I had been thinking of encouraging the family member to transfer back that 2023 transaction money because I think it's likely theirs (not the deceased) but that might look very sus being done at this point. It's a bit of a mess for this really sincere person who was just trying to do the right thing.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Zobeda]

Explaining probate

Have a read of the above and perhaps you'll determine that probate is not required in this instance.
This is based on you describing the estate as small and consisting of only 2 pensions.

 

[Peanuts20]

To be pedantic, your relative died intestate (no will) so normal probate won't happen. To the best of my understanding, a nearest relative instead has to apply for what is called a Grant of Administration and once everything is done there, any remaining assets get distributed according to the rights of succession, ie it starts with the spouse, then children, parent, siblings and so on and so forth. See below

Grant of Administration Intestate

Fair deal, providing there was no loan, will get sorted easily as part of this. Is there any property involved?

In regards to the bank account issue, I get the elderly relative was trying to do the right thing (and I presume the pension has been stopped), and the bank account(s) in questions are unlikely to get dragged in.

Whether or not there is a tax issue for the relative who owns the bank accounts when they pass is another story. Technically speaking, Revenue could say they were getting paid the pension and that could be an issue when it comes to the required Tax Clearance certs further down the line. That might be worth taking some legal advice on.

 

[MonyMony]

Explaining probate
Have a read of the above and perhaps you'll determine that probate is not required in this instance.
This is based on you describing the estate as small and consisting of only 2 pensions.

Thanks for that link - I hadn't known much of this (just assumed probate always happened). The estate will be in excess of the €20,000 mentioned there but access to the deceased accounts is not an issue because anything he had is in the other relative's account - which they're keen to ensure gets distributed fairly.

 

[mathepac]

Reading the OP there is and never was any bank account in the deceased's name, therefore there is no estate to be distributed. There is no point in going to the expense of getting a grant of administration, etc. etc. Can the relative whose accounts (post office, bank, credit union, building society) were used over the years not distribute the €20k quietly amongst the family members?

 

[MonyMony]

To be pedantic, your relative died intestate (no will) so normal probate won't happen. To the best of my understanding, a nearest relative instead has to apply for what is called a Grant of Administration and once everything is done there, any remaining assets get distributed according to the rights of succession, ie it starts with the spouse, then children, parent, siblings and so on and so forth. See below
Grant of Administration Intestate

Thanks for the link - very useful. It seems a solicitor is needed one way or the other (that's okay). It'll be siblings in this instance, but I'd definitely prefer certain of his siblings (e.g. the one who used their account for his pension payments) to be doing this rather than others.

Fair deal, providing there was no loan, will get sorted easily as part of this. Is there any property involved?

In regards to the bank account issue, I get the elderly relative was trying to do the right thing (and I presume the pension has been stopped), and the bank account(s) in questions are unlikely to get dragged in.

No property. All he had was that UK pension money (which has been stopped) that was deposited into the other relative's account every month. The way I'm seeing it now is that this relative would probably be the best one to do the administration of the estate (with a bit of help), as they have his money in their account. Would they have to submit a bank statement somewhere in all of this (with some confusing looking transactions maybe) or just hand over the money?

Whether or not there is a tax issue for the relative who owns the bank accounts when they pass is another story. Technically speaking, Revenue could say they were getting paid the pension and that could be an issue when it comes to the required Tax Clearance certs further down the line. That might be worth taking some legal advice on.

Thanks. Will do that

 

[MonyMony]

Reading the OP there is and never was any bank account in the deceased's name, therefore there is no estate to be distributed. There is no point in going to the expense of getting a grant of administration, etc. etc. Can the relative whose accounts (post office, bank, credit union, building society) were used over the years not distribute the €20k quietly amongst the family members?

Yes - the ideal scenario and no issue for the person who has the account (although I still think they're going to be a bit out of pocket because of the lack of record keeping!)