Private schools (hidden extra fees)

[Thirsty]

Teachers salaries in fee-paying Dept of Ed regulated second level schools are paid by the state; this is not the case for private junior schools.

Hence the difference in costs.

 

[Purple]

I’m in no doubt that the average household income (or the the median) for people who send their kids to private primary schools is far higher than €54k.

I would guess €150k.

The fees are also higher; e.g. €8k vs €6k for the same school primary vs secondary.

27% of households in Ireland have no earned income as all so the average median income of working households in Dublin would be significantly higher that €45k.

 

[TarfHead]

I’m in no doubt that the average household income (or the the median) for people who send their kids to private primary schools is far higher than €54k.

I would guess €150k.

I'm firmly on the left-hand side of that bell curve . One more year and I drop out of the sample altogether.

 

[Firefly]

I’m in no doubt that the average household income (or the the median) for people who send their kids to private primary schools is far higher than €54k.

I would go along with this bit. There are rich kids in both private & public schools, but most in private schools who have to make sacrifices (and that's the majority in my experience) are probably from the "Squeezed Middle".

Teachers salaries in fee-paying Dept of Ed regulated second level schools are paid by the state; this is not the case for private junior schools.

Yip that's correct, the teachers in my child's primary school are paid from fees.

Why are you considering going private?

A decent question and one that should be considered carefully. There are no guarantees in any case...it really depends on the child and the class / school. For primary schools I would advise trying to find out how nurturing the school is. I would recommend asking for a meeting with the principal to get the vibe. One thing we loved hearing was that the teacher swapped the kids around every week or so to encourage mixing.

For us, secondary school will come in less than the price of a new Ford Focus. In Dublin though it's probably the cost of a 3 Series so it's probably more of a consideration.

 

[Hurling Fan]

"Modest enough"
Sorry, I took it that people would be able to understand that within the context of this discussion and not take their own version of what I didn't say to counter a point I didn't make.

I'll try again; many, if not most, of the families who send their kids to private schools make sacrifices to do so and are not buying their kids BMW's and skiing in Aspen or renting a Yacht in the Riviera each summer.
Rather than resenting such families we should thank them as they are subsidising the public school system by paying for a place for their children twice.

I would look at it differently to be honest .... the taxpayer is subsidising fee paying schools and the taxpayer has no choice in the matter. I think if people want to send their children to fee paying schools they should pay for it all themselves without any payment from the tax payers coffers.

 

[Purple]

I would look at it differently to be honest .... the taxpayer is subsidising fee paying schools and the taxpayer has no choice in the matter. I think if people want to send their children to fee paying schools they should pay for it all themselves without any payment from the tax payers coffers.

If they sent their children to non fee paying schools then it would cost the taxpayer more at the State would be paying the full cost instead of half of it (or less).

 

[Steven Barrett]

I would look at it differently to be honest .... the taxpayer is subsidising fee paying schools and the taxpayer has no choice in the matter. I think if people want to send their children to fee paying schools they should pay for it all themselves without any payment from the tax payers coffers.

The State would want to do a better job in providing schools to go to.

My kids are at the age where there's a lot of talk about secondary schools. I know of loads of parents who live in the area and can't get their son into the local secondary school as their national school isn't deemed a feeder school. These schools are closer than my son's school which is deemed a feeder school. Another parent sends his kids to an Irish school in the area, which isn't a feeder school for the nearest Irish secondary school either! There are lots of parents with children in 6th class who are still looking for secondary schools for their children.

Estates have been built all over South Dublin over the last 20 years with thousands of new families. How many new secondary schools? 1

I live in Kilternan which has a population of just over 1,000. Under the area development plan, it will increase to about 12,000, the same size as Castlebar. No plans for a secondary school.

 

[Hurling Fan]

If they sent their children to non fee paying schools then it would cost the taxpayer more at the State would be paying the full cost instead of half of it (or less).

I don't think anyone will dispute the fact the children that go to fee paying schools have some advantages over children who don't. Smaller class sizes, more sports facilities etc. Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can. I agree with SBarrett - our education system is over stretched as it is and I feel that money could be put to much better use in other areas.

Purple I know you feel people who use fee paying schools are saving the country money, but sometimes it not all about money - I feel the tax payers money going into fee paying schools is a high cost, especially in the name of equality for all the country's children.

 

[TarfHead]

Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can. .. I feel the tax payers money going into fee paying schools is a high cost, especially in the name of equality for all the country's children.

Can you call that out please ? Specifically what you mean by subsidise and equality ?

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

27% of households in Ireland have no earned income as all so the average median income of working households in Dublin would be significantly higher that €45k.

Most households with no earned income are headed by pensioners or students.

That's why I specifically quoted two-parent families with 1/3 children under 18......

And it's all income, so includes benefits as well as earned income.

 

[EmmDee]

Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can. I agree with SBarrett - our education system is over stretched as it is and I feel that money could be put to much better use in other areas.

It's the other way around. All pupils (public or private) have their teachers salary paid by the state - and are all entitled to that. In public schools the state also has to pay capital costs whereas capital costs are paid by the fees / contributions in private schools. So in effect private school fees are subsidising the state. If all private schools were to be turned over to state hands, the cost of education to the State would dramatically increase - or the pot would be shared out over many more schools.

 

[Purple]

I don't think anyone will dispute the fact the children that go to fee paying schools have some advantages over children who don't. Smaller class sizes, more sports facilities etc. Why should families that can't afford to send their children to fee paying schools subsidise the families that can. I agree with SBarrett - our education system is over stretched as it is and I feel that money could be put to much better use in other areas.

Purple I know you feel people who use fee paying schools are saving the country money, but sometimes it not all about money - I feel the tax payers money going into fee paying schools is a high cost, especially in the name of equality for all the country's children.

I'd suggest that there is a bigger difference between a non fee paying school in blackrock and a non fee paying school in Ballymun that there is between the fee paying and non fee paying school in Blackrock. I suggest that the board of management of the non fee paying school in blackrock will still have accountants and solicitors and well connected people and will still get sponsorship for their sports teams and raise lots of money at school fairs and sponsored walks etc.

There are two types of schools; those where you get slagged for doing your homework and those where you get slagged for being thick.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

It's the other way around. All pupils (public or private) have their teachers salary paid by the state - and are all entitled to that. In public schools the state also has to pay capital costs whereas capital costs are paid by the fees / contributions in private schools. So in effect private school fees are subsidising the state. If all private schools were to be turned over to state hands, the cost of education to the State would dramatically increase - or the pot would be shared out over many more schools.

This argument goes round and round in circles depending on your prejudices.

If the state decided to stop paying teacher salaries in fee-paying schools two things would happen:

1. Some schools would go fully fee paying (probably north of €10k a year)
2. Some schools would go fully public (I think Kilkenny College did this in 2014)

My own guess is that you would end up with about 10 fully fee-paying schools in Ireland.

But this is just a guess, and no one has a firm idea. So claims that fee-paying schools cost save the taxpayer money are purely speculative.

 

[Leper]

Just my thoughts:- Send your children to fee paying or non fee paying schools? I believe if the child has talent it will be nurtured and become visible in any school. Therefore, I believe paying for the same education that can be obtained "free" elsewhere is a waste of money.

If the child has no talent, I see less point in paying for education. Mind you, this does not mean the child will not be successful in life. It just means that the child is probably not suited to academia.

In Cork, I would put the results in non paying secondary schools up against those of paying schools anyday. But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.

 

[Steven Barrett]

Just my thoughts:- Send your children to fee paying or non fee paying schools? I believe if the child has talent it will be nurtured and become visible in any school. Therefore, I believe paying for the same education that can be obtained "free" elsewhere is a waste of money.

I know the point you are making but I wouldn't wholly agree with it. If a bright child is in a disadvantaged school, they will find it difficult to progress. There are a lot of other factors outside the education system that will cause this. This child can be removed from the disadvantaged school and go to a free school that is not disadvantaged and shine. Parents have the biggest influence on how a child will do.

And by the way, I went to a fee paying school and some of the teachers there were shockingly bad. One of them reminded us constantly that he hated us and was only teaching for the long holidays. He has only retired in the last few years. I went to The Education Centre for 6th year, where all the teachers are paid from the fees. The difference in teaching was like night and day. Things made sense, teachers explained things clearly and really pushed you to succeed.

But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.

That's another issue. Club rugby is decimated by the schools. In theory, kids are supposed to be allowed to play for both, pressure is put on them to play with their school. And if they are in the first team squad, they won't have time to play for both anyway. Fringe players too tend to stay with the school. If your son is good at rugby, he'll almost certainly get a better level of coaching at school level too than a load of dads shouting at you.

 

[Purple]

There are plenty of fee-paying girl's schools and even a few co-ed fee paying schools.
Just as all black people aren't drug dealer, all Travellers aren't criminals, all immigrants aren't scroungers/terrorists, all men aren't rapists and all attractive women aren't gold diggers so it is the case that all people who send their kids to fee paying schools/ went to fee paying schools are not snobs or rugby fanatics.

Bigotry is bigotry, no matter what group you are looking down on and inverted snobbery is still snobbery.

 

[Purple]

It is also worth noting that most schools in Ireland are private schools but most of those private schools are fully State funded. We are discussing the minority of private schools which are partially State funded.

 

[TarfHead]

In Cork, I would put the results in non paying secondary schools up against those of paying schools anyday. But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.

Better chance of playing for Munster if you attend Blackrock College, e.g. Carbery, Conway, Loughman

 

[EmmDee]

This argument goes round and round in circles depending on your prejudices.

If the state decided to stop paying teacher salaries in fee-paying schools two things would happen:

1. Some schools would go fully fee paying (probably north of €10k a year)
2. Some schools would go fully public (I think Kilkenny College did this in 2014)

My own guess is that you would end up with about 10 fully fee-paying schools in Ireland.

But this is just a guess, and no one has a firm idea. So claims that fee-paying schools cost save the taxpayer money are purely speculative.

That is a fair point - and I agree. There are two routes a school could go.

But I guess I was pushing back against the argument often made that public schools are subsidising private schools and that if only the state didn't pay teachers' wages in private schools then everything would be fine and there would be loads more cash to go around - I think it's a false assumption (quite apart from the other discussion regarding legality etc etc)

 

[Firefly]

Just my thoughts:- Send your children to fee paying or non fee paying schools? I believe if the child has talent it will be nurtured and become visible in any school.

Maybe, but in a better school that will be nurtured even further. That doesn't have to be private by the way, but the smaller classes & extra funds in private schools will help you would imagine.

Therefore, I believe paying for the same education that can be obtained "free" elsewhere is a waste of money.

It's not just the education though. There's a great scene in Goodwill Hunting (the bar scene if you want to cehck it out) where Matt Damon slags off a student from Harvard saying he can get just as good an education in the public library. That may well be true, but it's all the stuff around the edges that some parents want for their kids. In other words, it's the environment. Certainly for some, sending their kids to a private school is all about the cachet, but for most, in my opinion, it's the smaller class sizes, activities and if I'm being honest, being in a school where doing well is "normal" and not being slagged for doing so as Purple highlighted in some schools.

In Cork, I would put the results in non paying secondary schools up against those of paying schools anyday.

I would disagree to be honest. There are very good non paying secondary schools for sure, but there are some in Cork I wouldn't dream of sending my kids to.

But, then again there's the rugby . . . and many over-hope their sons will don the red of Munster eventually; a likely pipedream when all is said and done.

That may have been the case in your day , but it's less & less now. In fact, one of the 2 private secondary schools in Cork has made a massive move into GAA in recent years.