Primary School Teacher shortage

ATC110 said:
Some of these comments make me think AAM is now being used for public sector union propaganda purposes
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Doncha just love it though! Having spent 20 years each in both public sector and private sector employment, and with a retired teacher as spouse, I find the propaganda (from both sides!) quite fascinating. I can only conclude that there are people so far into the silo on both sides that they can't even begin to (and probably don't want to) form a realistic opinion on the matter.
 
ATC110 said:
Some of these comments make me think AAM is now being used for public sector union propaganda purposes
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There are two forms of propaganda (i) The Truth and (ii) The Untruth. Deciphering both is in the mind of the reader. There are at least two sides to every story and usually the loudest is the most listened to (especially to those with closed minds). This forum offers a platform to everybody to express their views and long may this last.

Trade Unionism in the Civil and Public services is fiercely under threat. There is so much written into law now (thanks to Common Sense and Trade Unionism) that most issues are common sense and entitlement (or non entitlement). So, why do we still need trade unions? It's where the truth and untruth collide.

Many managers (and senior officials) were previously trade union reps at local level. Much of their skills were honed in such a position. This was win/win for whatever Department/Board where many could often deflect grave union actions. Please note promoted people in the CS/PS seldom remembered their past.

I spent much of my working life as a low grade trade union representative where my most difficult problems revolved around recruitment. I had to be elected at an AGM every year, and occasionally I was not elected. Fortunately, Purple and some others with their anti union thoughts (and they're entitled to them) contributed to making my life as a recruiting officer easier. You will always get managers to stretch their opinions to the elastic limit and some would drive on and force their working colleagues to submit and enhance managers personal Curriculae Vitae.

I've seen trade union and management cock-ups. I've seen both attend meetings "that never happened" to resolve what was deemed unresolvable. There were times when I'd roll my eyes in disbelief at people flying their own kites. The raison d'etre of trade unions is to represent their members fairly. Lose sight of this and we're involved in unnecessary conflict amongst the untruths.

There is more talk on this thread about the holidays and working hours of teachers than the real issue of the shortage of teachers.
 
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ATC110 said:
Some of these comments make me think AAM is now being used for public sector union propaganda purposes
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I disagree. There are strong Union advocates on this site and there are those, like me, who have no problem with Unions in principle but have an intense dislike of how Unions in the State sector function and the real harm and suffering they cause.
 
ATC110 said:
Some of these comments make me think AAM is now being used for public sector union propaganda purposes
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Point of Information:- If you think any post on this forum is being used for inappropriate reasons you can report the post merely by clicking the blue "Report" at the bottom of all posts.
 
Having sat at the opposite side to unions in discussions, my issues was never with the local reps. A good local rep can be a useful asset to local management. (a bad one can be a disaster to everyone, but that's another story. My issue was always with the leadership on the unions. Unions are a business, they depend on members and members fees to fund them and the leaders are dependent on that to justify their 6 figure salaries. It used to be a standing joke that you knew when the "programme for prosperity" discussions were going on during the Celtic Tiger years because of all the big new cars in the car park belonging to the union leaders.

The reality is that, outside of the public sector, unions in Ireland are going the same way as bank branches, a page from history. Whether it is because we have a better educated and more confident workforce, more statutory protection or a growing number of people for whom the concept of the "safe pensionable job" is anathema is an interesting discussion in itself but the majority of kids in school will never join a union or even contemplate it.

That's not me being anti-union, just calling it as I see it.
 
Back on topic; it seems from previous posts that there is no shortage of teachers but rather a short term issue caused by Covid19 related absenteeism.
The question of whether career breaks are still being sanctioned or extended during this period remains unanswered.
 
Purple said:
I disagree. There are strong Union advocates on this site and there are those, like me, who have no problem with Unions in principle but have an intense dislike of how Unions in the State sector function and the real harm and suffering they cause.
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I said some of the comments-no mention of ideology-which are deliberate attempts at obfuscation/gaslighting when there's any discussion of the insidious behaviour of the public sector unions and their members.
 
Leper said:
Point of Information:- If you think any post on this forum is being used for inappropriate reasons you can report the post merely by clicking the blue "Report" at the bottom of all posts.
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That would be like expecting a car clamping company to clamp its own wheel
 
Purple said:
And yet from what I hear from teachers every single one of them is exceptional, hard working dedicated selfless front line professionals who just do it because of their vocation.
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Just like the nurses. And the guards.
 
Peanuts20 said:
Having sat at the opposite side to unions in discussions, my issues was never with the local reps. A good local rep can be a useful asset to local management. (a bad one can be a disaster to everyone, but that's another story. My issue was always with the leadership on the unions. Unions are a business, they depend on members and members fees to fund them and the leaders are dependent on that to justify their 6 figure salaries. It used to be a standing joke that you knew when the "programme for prosperity" discussions were going on during the Celtic Tiger years because of all the big new cars in the car park belonging to the union leaders.

The reality is that, outside of the public sector, unions in Ireland are going the same way as bank branches, a page from history. Whether it is because we have a better educated and more confident workforce, more statutory protection or a growing number of people for whom the concept of the "safe pensionable job" is anathema is an interesting discussion in itself but the majority of kids in school will never join a union or even contemplate it.

That's not me being anti-union, just calling it as I see it.
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Perhaps trade unions are victims of their own success? Modern trade unions date from the late 19th and early 20th century. Since then, workers' wages, terms and conditions, and statutory rights have improved beyond all recognition. This didn't happen because employers became nice and cuddly; improvements were fought for and heavily contested.

With more and more battles won, trade unions are running out of issues to engage a mass membership. The average worker today has a standard of living and quality of life that Jim Larkin could hardly imagine in his wildest dreams. With the major battles won, and rightly so, the unions main role should be the maintenance of an equilibrium between worker and employer. But the devil makes work for idle hands, and organisational dynamics around self-interest take over.

Understandable, and perhaps the lesser of two evils. Countries that have suppressed trade unions tend not to be nice places to live in.
 
The Irish Times, a flag bearer for the Unionised media, runs headlines like this; Ireland ranks in last place in OECD for investment in education and RTE, the Public Sector Broadcaster, runs this similar headline. Both the Irish Times and RTE know that our GDP is grossly inflated and GNI is a much better gauge by which to measure such things but they continue to misrepresent the facts because of their left wing agenda.

This OECD report says tells us that our investment per student is about average but since our teachers are much better paid than the OECD average, with salary increases 5 times higher than the OECD average over the last 20 years. a smaller proportion goes on infrastructure and student supports. It also tells us that we are slipping down the rankings in literacy levels for 15 year olds and we are below average for complex science ability and complex problem solving in the same cohort.
We have been particularly successful in social inclusion but that is a reflection of policy. The skills and ability of the individual teachers has more of a bearing on outcomes. We re improving, but more slowly than our OECD counterparts and are well behind the economies we are actually competing with. If there is a shortage of teachers it seems it is a shortage of suitably skills and motivated teachers.
 
There isn't a shortage of teachers. There is a shortage of permanent jobs available for teachers. There is a shortage of teachers willing to take temp jobs.

Who would move home (employment in schools is spread throughout the country) for a maternity contract, almost certain to come to an end once the maternity leave is up, or other short term job.

Teachers are understandably not queueing up for the temporary jobs being offered
 
Peanuts20 said:
The reality is that, outside of the public sector, unions in Ireland are going the same way as bank branches, a page from history. Whether it is because we have a better educated and more confident workforce, more statutory protection or a growing number of people for whom the concept of the "safe pensionable job" is anathema is an interesting discussion in itself but the majority of kids in school will never join a union or even contemplate it.

That's not me being anti-union, just calling it as I see it.
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Not quite consigned to history just yet - ups and downs, typically in reverse direction to economic growth cycles
From https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Countries/Ireland/Trade-Unions

Union density – the proportion of employees who are union members – has been as much affected by the changes in overall employment in Ireland as by changes in union membership itself. The figures from the Central Statistical Office show that during the employment boom in the late 1990s and the early 2000s the number of union members rose by about 100,000, but union density fell – from 46% in 1994 to 30% in 2007 – as unions found it difficult to break into many of the growing sectors of the economy.

In the economic crisis that began in 2008, union density initially went up – rising to 32% in 2010 – as union membership fell less rapidly than overall employment. However, from 2011 to 2016 both union membership and union density fell, with membership dropping from 498,000 to 416,000 while density fell more sharply from 32% in 2011 to 23% in 2016.

In the most recent period, union membership has again risen – to 461,000 in 2018, but density has increased only slightly to 24%, as overall employment has also grown.
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RetirementPlan said:
You know how 'cut taxes, cut services' usually works out, right?
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It doesn't work like that. The HSE is more than adequately funded, it's poorly functioning due to union mendacity.

When tax receipts increase, the rapacious unions are first in line to get pay increases for their members so the public sees little to no benefit
 
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ATC110 said:
It doesn't work like that. The HSE is more than adequately funded, it's poorly functioning due to union mendacity.

When tax receipts increase, the rapacious unions are first in line to get pay increases for their members so the public sees little to no benefit
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It's a long time since I've seen anybody beat Purple for anti trade union sentiment, but ATC110 wins that race easily. I'm just thinking if that post was discussed in any hospital, ATC110 would be laughed out of the site.
 
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