President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

[Purple]

Do you accept the assessments of Gardai and PSNI that PIRA members are engaged in democratic programs of a peaceful nature?

They said that they are not engaged in paramilitary/terrorist activates. Who do you think is laundering the Diesel, smuggling the cigarettes and running the protection rackets?

 

[Purple]

Mick Clifford writes well on this topic.

 

[WolfeTone]

Mick Clifford writes well on this topic.

He writes poorly on the topic.
He claims GOIRA had a democratic mandate to wage against Britain. It did not. It could not. Nowhere in the SF Manifesto for 1918 election was a declaration of war against Britain made. It made reference to, and danced around the prospect of using "every means necessary" to establish a Republic and it invoked the Proclaimation and the principle of inalienable rights of the Irish people and Irish sovereignty.
But ultimately however it concluded that "Sinn Féin will oppose at the Polls every individual candidate who does not accept this principle."

There was no declaration of war, there was no mandate for war. In fact it was January 1920 that the Dáil first debated the motion of formally declaring war against Britain. That motion was defeated.

 

[Purple]

He writes poorly on the topic.
He claims GOIRA had a democratic mandate to wage against Britain. It did not. It could not. Nowhere in the SF Manifesto for 1918 election was a declaration of war against Britain made. It made reference to, and danced around the prospect of using "every means necessary" to establish a Republic and it invoked the Proclaimation and the principle of inalienable rights of the Irish people and Irish sovereignty.
But ultimately however it concluded that "Sinn Féin will oppose at the Polls every individual candidate who does not accept this principle."

There was no declaration of war, there was no mandate for war. In fact it was January 1920 that the Dáil first debated the motion of formally declaring war against Britain. That motion was defeated.

I'm not going down that rabbit hole again either. You drank the Shinner Koolaid. It's like arguing evolution with a creationist.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Mick Clifford writes well on this topic.

A brilliant piece. His closing paragraph sums it up very well.

One day, perhaps when those who ran the IRA no longer have influence, the Shinners will accept the wrongs committed and leave the past alone.

So far, in that respect, they are, as Deputy Stanley might put it, slow learners.

 

[WolfeTone]

@Baby boomer with respect, you have just exemplified the hyperbolic paranoia to the Eoghan Harris proportions.

Some points you raise deserve consideration, but conflating slogans such "Tiocfaidh ár lá" with the SF parliamentary party being in hock to what PIRA AC tell them to do or say in simply preposterous.
Here is a few other slogans
"No Surrender"
"Rule Brittania"
"A Nation Once Again"
"Come on Ye Boys in Green"
"Up The Dubs"

- Kingsmill 'bread stunt' - are you suggesting permission was sought from AC for that? Please!
-bullying allegations, in other parties. Is there Army Councils running the other parties too?
- Brian Stanleys tweet. Done to death at this stage. But in the context of discussing who is in charge of SF are you seriously suggesting Brian Stanley sought authorisation for that? Please!

- the treatment of Maria Cahill was despicable and the events surrounding her ordeal occurred when PIRA was still active. This is 2021. My point throughout all this is that PIRA is gone and what remains of it is akin to an old man's drinking club.

- social media abuse. No doubt it goes on. It goes on here too sometimes. It should stop but if this is what the AC are engaged in, which I doubt, then we really are scraping the barrel.

 

[WolfeTone]

I'm not going down that rabbit hole again either. You drank the Shinner Koolaid. It's like arguing evolution with a creationist.

Except what I'm pointing is contrary to SF views on 1919-21 war.
They too, like you and Clifford, are all agreed that GOIRA had a moral authority by way of a mandate to conduct sectarian massacres, murder children, disappear bodies and butcher the dead bodies of British soldiers.

I'm simply pointing out to you that they had no such mandate.
Like I said, you and Mary Lou, and Brian Stanley too, it's impossible to tell the difference.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Commonplace? Hardly! In a normal party, advisors advise and Ministers decide. That's not what's going on here. The man who needed to be made content is calling the shots (if you pardon the expression, ahem.)

Now, if this were an isolated incident, yeah, you could write it off as unfortunate. Poor choice of words, under time pressure, that sort of thing. But put it beside, just to take a few examples:

- the Bobby Storey funeral, at the height of Covid restrictions, with paramilitary homage style dress and behaviour.

- Mary Lou and Conor Murphy at odds over the Paul Quinn murder, with the former wearing her best deer in headlights look when confronted with Murphy's words on live TV.

- David "tiocfaidh ar lá" Cullinane

- the Kingsmills bread stunt.

- more allegations of bullying than every other party put together.

- Brian Stanley's tweet

- the treatment of Maria Cahill

- the unique level of personal abuse coming from SF supporters on social media.

and you've got a pattern. You will of course say that every single one of the above can be explained away, nothing to see here, all parties do stuff, etc etc.

But when you put it all together, it's a compelling basis to say SF is different. It's not just another party.

A neat little summary - an object lesson in fairness.
You omitted the recent boycott by SF councillor MacDonncha of the commemoration of two murdered Gardai.

He (MacDonncha) said he and Sinn Féin had not snubbed the event. “There is no question of a boycott here. That is just not the case, and I wouldn’t like to see anyone making mischief out of this.”

Liar! I suppose we should be thankful. Not thankful to them of course but thankful that they see a need to keep their dogma as far from view as possible from a gullible millennial electorate.

MaccDonncha added “Two gardaí died in the course of their duties. Two republicans were also executed and we would pay tribute to them.

This is the shocker. For a start it lays bare the lie that he has just given that he didn't boycott the event. Much more sinister we see here the McDowell syndrome. Who could possibly see an equivalence in that incident between the murder of two guardians of the State and the execution of their murderers? Only those who have to recite each day on bended knees before a framed copy of The Proclamation the republican Credo "I believe in the 32 county socialist republic, I believe in Bobby Sands, I believe in Bobby Storey etc. etc."

Kingsmill 'bread stunt' - are you suggesting permission was sought from AC for that? Please!

Of course he wouldn't need permission for that. Probably got a few congratulatory texts from AC for his initiative.

 

[WolfeTone]

This is the shocker.

And yet this country cannot bring itself to commemorate the lives of RIC officers. Irish men with families, who for the most part just went about their business of guardians of the State.
Unable to move on, unable to draw a line in the sand.
What a shocker indeed!

 

[Firefly]

Commonplace? Hardly! In a normal party, advisors advise and Ministers decide. That's not what's going on here. The man who needed to be made content is calling the shots (if you pardon the expression, ahem.)

Now, if this were an isolated incident, yeah, you could write it off as unfortunate. Poor choice of words, under time pressure, that sort of thing. But put it beside, just to take a few examples:

- the Bobby Storey funeral, at the height of Covid restrictions, with paramilitary homage style dress and behaviour.

- Mary Lou and Conor Murphy at odds over the Paul Quinn murder, with the former wearing her best deer in headlights look when confronted with Murphy's words on live TV.

- David "tiocfaidh ar lá" Cullinane

- the Kingsmills bread stunt.

- more allegations of bullying than every other party put together.

- Brian Stanley's tweet

- the treatment of Maria Cahill

- the unique level of personal abuse coming from SF supporters on social media.

and you've got a pattern. You will of course say that every single one of the above can be explained away, nothing to see here, all parties do stuff, etc etc.

But when you put it all together, it's a compelling basis to say SF is different. It's not just another party.

A great post

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And yet this country cannot bring itself to commemorate the lives of RIC officers. Irish men with families, who for the most part just went about their business of guardians of the State.
Unable to move on, unable to draw a line in the sand.
What a shocker indeed!

I am pinching myself. So you agree with MacDonncha that the commemoration should have included a balanced reference to the injustice of executing their IRA murderers? I have given some respect to your provocative (I mean that as a compliment) challenge of the more conventional viewpoint but please say it isn't so that you agree with MacDonncha on that.

 

[WolfeTone]

So you agree with MacDonncha that the commemoration should have included a balanced reference to the injustice of executing their murderers?

Where did I say that? But for what it is worth if the underlying premise of 21st Ireland is resolve all our quarrels through peaceful and democratic forums in the absence of the gun then some time and space must be afforded to all protagonists of the conflicts that littered Ireland with violence in the 20th so that the sleeping dog does not lie, it rests in peace.

I have given some respect to your provocative (I mean that as a compliment) challenge of the more conventional viewpoint but please say it isn't so that you agree with MacDonncha on that.

It is the conventional viewpoint that is provocative. The white-washing of hideous crimes by our Republican forefathers and the transformation into gallant hero's.

This discussion has continued over several threads now. There can be no more a galling hypocrisy of watching the sheep happy-clapping the President of Ireland euligising the memory of Thomas Clarke as he cuts a ribbon to name (yet another) landmark, bridges and train stations, of someone who was engaged in the indiscriminate bombing of bridges and train stations leading to the murder of a 14yr school boy.
Simultaneously they propel themselves into the high moral ground and condemn the terrorists who indiscriminately bomb bridges and train stations, and shopping arenas murdering innocent boys in Warrington.

Let it be known, that Fenian Brotherhood of Clarke and Co was everybit as popular in 1880's for its bombing campaign as the PIRA was in 1990's.

Can you explain that? Can anyone explain why the office of President of Ireland is used, and endorsed by the political establishment across the floor, to commemorate and glorify Thomas Clarke?

My whole position in this is that in 1998 the people of All Ireland decided that from here on in whatever our differences the gun needs to be taken out of Irish politics, permanently.

Two ways perhaps to do that. Either condemn all of those who embarked on the futile task of freedom through violent means throughout the ages, or,
allow everybody, all protagonists, time and space to commemorate their dead and in turn aspire to a future without violence.

Some acknowledgement that our trouble past is more complex than the black and white good v bad guys would help.

It was Her Majesty QE2 who said, in one of the finest speeches I have ever heard,

"Indeed, so much of this visit reminds us of the complexity of our history, its many layers and traditions, but also the importance of forbearance and conciliation. Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it...

To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy. With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all."

Whatever the political differences. Whether decommissioned IRA men are giving the go ahead for Renewal Heat Incentive Schemes or lobbyists for private medical organisations are getting ahead in contract negotiations, or cosy public appointments for close friends and associates, it is a far cry from the bloodshed that has riddled this country in the 20th century.
I'm mindful of the hyperbolic paranoia being peddled and whipped up by media and political cronies for their own selfish political interests as opposed to moving to a future without paramilitaries.

The Bobby Storey funeral arrangements were sanctioned by the PSNI.
The Pat Howell email was about endorsing DUP public policy.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@WolfeTone so you do see the gardai that were murdered and their IRA assassins that were executed as equal victims of our troubled past and MacDonncha was right to boycott the event. I won't debate that point with you any more, so.
But consider this. Maybe MacDonncha and his buddies do not share your enlightened balanced view of history - that everybody was equally bad. Maybe they really believe that in fact the IRA assassins were the heroes of that incident. Be not fooled by their more recent endorsement of continuity RUC. The leopard has not changed its spots.

 

[WolfeTone]

so you do see the gardai that were murdered and the execution of their IRA assassins as equal victims of our troubled past.

Where did I say that?

Duke, I'm not interested in propelling the men and women of violence as gallant hero's. I'm interested in promoting the futility of raising arms against each other.
I cannot change the past. Pitting one side against another is futile in my opinion.
Her Majesty thd Queen showed some level of contrition in Dublin for past deeds of her nation.
I'm suggesting that our President show some contrition for the past deeds of people in this country to her nation.

We could start by not naming bridges in 2016 after those who were intent on blowing up bridges in 1880's in England.

Regrettably, no one will answer my question on Thomas Clarke.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The topic is about what we should call our Presie. As there seemed to be absolute agreement on that it pivoted onto more familiar boxing arenas. One of which is your hobby horse of the hypocrisy of venerating Fenian, Easter Rising or WoI "heroes". I am completely with you on that.
Latterly in the thread my own pivot was to the MacDonncha boycott. I reckon about 30,000 people died in the 26 counties in 1941, most by natural causes but some not so natural. So singling out the murder of two Gardai is certainly a heavily weighted political event. I don't know whether it is an annual affair or an every 80 years affair but I have no doubt that it was seen by some as a way to expose SF mixed standards on the matter. Opportunistic or not, SF were duly exposed and almost certainly due to the implicit or explicit command from the retirement cumman decided that to attend would be against the faith.
As David Trimble (you know the Nobel Peace Prize winner) so aptly observed: "SF just ain't house trained". Not quite on the Mallon scale of witticism but not bad.
But somehow our millennials have been persuaded that this is all so last millennium.

 

[Purple]

@WolfeTone, if the Shinners agreed with you they'd have turned up at the commemoration of the two Gardaí murdered by the IRA that they claim lineage with.

 

[WolfeTone]

SF were duly exposed and almost certainly due to the implicit or explicit command from the retirement cumman decided that to attend would be against the faith.

I would respectfully disagree Duke. I'm quite used to seeing SF reps at senior level attend commemorations British War dead.

Michelle O Néill lays wreath.

It doesn't real sit well with the narrative that the AC are instructing boycotts of Garda commemorations but permitting attendance at British War commemorations, does it?

My gut instinct is that Mc Donncha did a solo run on this.
Perhaps he is not prepared to move on? Perhaps he has not grasped the shifting sands under his feet?
There is plenty of that, particularly in this jurisdiction.

 

[WolfeTone]

@WolfeTone, if the Shinners agreed with you they'd have turned up at the commemoration of the two Gardaí murdered by the IRA that they claim lineage with.

If you were right about AC directing SF then Michelle O Néill would hardly be attending a British War commemoration.

 

[Purple]

Michelle O Néill lays wreath.

I'm no student of history but as far as I recall the IRA weren't killing people in Belgium in 1916.

It doesn't real sit well with the narrative that the AC are instructing boycotts of Garda commemorations but permitting attendance at British War commemorations, does it?

See above.

There is plenty of that, particularly in this jurisdiction.

In this country and in Northern Ireland

 

[Purple]

If you were right about AC directing SF then Michelle O Néill would hardly be attending a British War commemoration.

See above