President of Ireland or President of the Republic of Ireland?

[WolfeTone]

Classic stuff alright!

 

[cremeegg]

SF are proven liars.

What ?

What on earth has this to do with an otherwise good post.

Are you so steeped in anti-Sinn Fein sentiment that you cannot contribute to the discussion without prefacing your remarks with this almost like a disclaimer.

Who do you think this impresses?

This knee jerk condemnation of SF by some people every time they are mentioned makes no converts. There are many who agree with your perspective, equally there are many who are put off by this unthinking anti-SF bias.

At least Purple usually backs up his anti_SF comments.

Most you us can easily point to clear untruths for each political party.

 

[Baby boomer]

What ?

What on earth has this to do with an otherwise good post.

Are you so steeped in anti-Sinn Fein sentiment that you cannot contribute to the discussion without prefacing your remarks with this almost like a disclaimer.

Who do you think this impresses?

This knee jerk condemnation of SF by some people every time they are mentioned makes no converts. There are many who agree with your perspective, equally there are many who are put off by this unthinking anti-SF bias.

At least Purple usually backs up his anti_SF comments.

Most you us can easily point to clear untruths for each political party.

Ok, you're quite correct, and all political parties tell lies some or all of the time, but.......

Sinn Féin is not just another political party. For most of its existence, it was the political wing of a unified movement that also had a private army. (Some claim they still haven't gone away you know!) There was overlapping membership and some of its present politicians are quite open about and proud of their erstwhile 'military' career.

Now some of the electorate is ok with all this. After all, FF and FG had not totally dissimilar foundation stories, albeit a century ago. And some of the electorate aren't old enough to remember the troubles. But some are very uneasy about SF and the prospect of an SF government. Taken to extremes, suppose you were an upstanding citizen who had given certain confidential information about, say, diesel laundering to the Gardaí back in the day. How would you feel about an SF Minister for Justice appointing a Garda Commissioner with power to access Special Branch files? You might not sleep easily, I'd guess.

 

[kinnjohn]

SF is Inching closer to power thanks to the granni of this World, If they don't cop themselves on we could see SF with enough seats to form a Government on their own,

 

[kinnjohn]

What ?

What on earth has this to do with an otherwise good post.

Are you so steeped in anti-Sinn Fein sentiment that you cannot contribute to the discussion without prefacing your remarks with this almost like a disclaimer.

Who do you think this impresses?

This knee jerk condemnation of SF by some people every time they are mentioned makes no converts. There are many who agree with your perspective, equally there are many who are put off by this unthinking anti-SF bias.

At least Purple usually backs up his anti_SF comments.

Most you us can easily point to clear untruths for each political party.

I am not so sure about the no converts, FF and Labour are committing suicide attacking SF to the point no one knows what FF/LAB stands for anymore, FG use FF/Lab as a mudguard to stay in power indefinitely,

 

[WolfeTone]

Sinn Féin is not just another political party.

It is actually. Its just another political party.

For most of its existence, it was the political wing of a unified movement that also had a private army. (Some claim they still haven't gone away you know!)

True. But hardly unique for 20th century Ireland. In fact, for the most part of the 20th century in Ireland there was little establishing a real political party if you didn't have linkage or lineage to a private army.

*They havent gone away you know!

This quote, attributable to Grisly, was battered and tattooed into the public physche as a forewarning of the dangers of a politically resurgent SF.
So much so that it still gets the occasional airing today, some 25yrs later.
Not so much with the resolve of a complicit and determined political and media agenda in times gone by (after all Adams is long retired) but more so in the guise of a puff of smoke, like a cartoon version of a baby Godzilla.

That's because the rise of SF in the political arena has actually coincided with the demise of its paramilitary wing, not strengthened it.
The 20th century provides ample evidence of similar occurrences.

Critically however, and it really is a pity in my opinion, is that the significance of that rally in Belfast City Centre in August 1995 was lost on everyone, and all because of a concerted political and media hysteria over a flippant remark prompted by a shout in the crowd.

Perhaps, one day, take some time to understand the significance of that rally on that day and what it represented in the six county statlet.

After all, FF and FG had not totally dissimilar foundation stories, albeit a century ago.

Hardly a century ago. Check out the arms trials of the 1970's and the subsequent election to office of those involved to the highest political office in the State through the 1980's.

suppose you were an upstanding citizen who had given certain confidential information about, say, diesel laundering to the Gardaí back in the day. How would you feel about an SF Minister for Justice appointing a Garda Commissioner with power to access Special Branch files? You might not sleep easily, I'd guess.

With respect, this is the Gotham city version of how government and ministeries work.
It is the reasoning of those who still puff away at "they haven't gone away you know"

 

[Baby boomer]

Less than two decades ago SF was a political party with a private army attached. That army has apparently disarmed and may well have disbanded, even if no-one is quite sure about the whys and whens of all that. Or it may still exist in a quiescent form - nobody outside "the movement" really knows.

Trying to be fair here, I can accept there was some legitimacy to armed struggle - even if not to everything encompassed by that expression - and a political solution was necessary to being it to an end. That political solution was the Good Friday Agreement. That's now over twenty years in the rearview mirror and that's plenty of time for SF to have jettisoned its paramilitary baggage and become just another political party. If it really, really wanted to do that, you'd think it would lose no opportunity to put clear blue water between its past and present. But it doesn't. Time and time again, the mask slips. Perhaps the most recent example was the Bobby Storey funeral featuring a cast of thousands in identical dress that paid homage to paramilitary style uniform and discipline. NO other political party behaves like this. Nor would it even occur to any other party to behave like this. SF is different.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@WolfeTone
The really disgusting thing about the "haven't gone away you know" episode was how the crowd loved it. I know your innocent view of this is that the nationalist population were living in fear of a pogrom by forces of the Protestant state and that their only defenders were The Boys. Sorry to disillusion you but this was naked sectarian triumphalism.

 

[joe sod]

There was overlapping membership and some of its present politicians are quite open about and proud of their erstwhile 'military' career.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/anti-gay-ex-ira-man-gerry-mcgeough-punched-at-pride-parade-to-protest-at-new-lgbtq-event-in-omagh-40879939.html

Gerry Mcgeough while no longer a member of SF illustrates the problem SF will have if they ever get to power, while the party hierarchy is all liberal and socialist alot of its membership is not. Gerry Mcgeough was of the old Nationalist Catholic wing of the party that did alot of the "fighting" during the troubles and are not too impressed with the direction of the party. He said the hunger strikers would be turning in their graves at the modern SF.
However I think this "macho" element of the IRA explains alot of the attraction to SF by young males who are not well versed on SF policies but this element of cordite and danger is the attraction, So SF is the ultimate catch all party like FF was

 

[WolfeTone]

The really disgusting thing about the "haven't gone away you know" episode was how the crowd loved it.

I understand the media and political backlash at the time. Even for years after as the negotiations for a political agreement and ending of armed groupings continued. It was an insensitive offensive remark. But it was an off-the-cuff remark. At the very same time Adams was publicly announcing that he wanted to see an end to all armed groups (if I'm not mistaken this was part of his actual speech that day)

But some 25yrs later it still gets the occasional airing coupled with ominous cartoon sounding vibes of SF ministers getting their hands on secret state files - que evil laughter of SF minister with fangs, long sharp fingernails, blood shot eyes etc.

It really is the stuff of minds influenced by the goings on in Gotham city. An Eoghan Harris type paranoia.

Gerry Adams in 1995 "they haven't gone away you know"
Gerry Adams in 2015 "the IRA have left the stage, they are no more"

Which holds true?

The British military and security apparatus has been dismantled, at least visibly so. Is it because thd IRA haven't gone away, ye know?
Or because they are no more a threat?

I know your innocent view of this is that the nationalist population were living in fear of a pogrom by forces of the Protestant state and that their only defenders were The Boys.

Well, that is your innocent view of what you think my views are. But I think the threats of pogroms were long past. There was plenty of other grievances to be aired.
It is a pity that the significance of that rally that day in Belfast has been lost.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I understand the media and political backlash at the time. Even for years after as the negotiations for a political agreement and ending of armed groupings continued. It was an insensitive offensive remark. But it was an off-the-cuff remark.

Good we agree, maybe raise a small chuckle.

At the very same time Adams was publicly announcing that he wanted to see an end to all armed groups (if I'm not mistaken this was part of his actual speech that day)

That was/is the mantra, IRA and BA were equal protagonists in the "conflict". To this day this is the central SF/IRA narrative.

Gerry Adams in 1995 "they haven't gone away you know"
Gerry Adams in 2015 "the IRA have left the stage, they are no more"
Which holds true?

Gerry knew in 1994, and indeed long before that, that the heady "Tiocfaidh ar la" days of 1971 were long gone. The IRA had become a dirty sectarian murder gang. John Hume persuaded Grisly that Sunningdale would now be a far different proposition for himself and Marty et al. Problem was how would he sell it to his IRA supporters. "They haven't gone away you know" did the trick as the sectarian mob howled in approval. But Gerry knew that they had effectively gone away, just not quite the time to tell the masses.
But have the Danny Morrisons gone away? I believe the PSNI when they say that they have gone political these days but they haven't gone away, you know.
It is of course common for background elitist forces to have strong influence in our democratic parties. For Labour it is the Unions. For FG/FF possibly senior business/farming interests and in former times the Church. For SF it is the IRA Army Council, so again we are reminded that "they haven't gone away, you know". Do you accept that this linkage exists?

Well, that is your innocent view of what you think my views are. But I think the threats of pogroms were long past. There was plenty of other grievances to be aired.

Glad you have eased back on your "PIRA defenders against pogroms" motif. Just for the record, there was a threat of pogrom, and indeed there was a minor pogrom, for about 24 hours in August '69 until the BA arrived.
What were these plenty of other grievances that convinced the catholic mob that they needed the sectarian terrorist threat to be kept alive and well?

It is a pity that the significance of that rally that day in Belfast has been lost.

Help me find it.

 

[Baby boomer]

Glad you have eased back on your "PIRA defenders against pogroms" motif. Just for the record, there was a threat of pogrom, and indeed there was a minor pogrom, for about 24 hours in August '69 until the BA arrived. What were these plenty of other grievances that convinced the catholic mob that they needed the sectarian terrorist threat to be kept alive and well?

In fairness, the British Army were responsible for worse pogroms (by body count) in Ballymurphy and the Bogside. Then there was collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and overlapping membership between the UDR and UVF/LVF. Not to mention internment and brutal treatment of detainees that really amounted to torture. Then you had countless convictions in Diplock courts after suspects had confessions beaten out of them. It wasn't just the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 you know.

Now, to point out these incidents is not the same as saying that the existence - and certainly the actions - of the IRA was justified. Much of it is unjustifiable in any terms just as many British Army actions were also unjustifiable.

Both sides are reluctant to face up to the harsh reality of what they've done. There's denial, obfuscation, lies and blanket glorification of military actions. But that leaves SF with a bad look in terms of its apparent wish to be just another political party. Elements within the party give the strong impression that they're more comfortable being at war than at peace.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

In fairness, the British Army were responsible for worse pogroms (by body count) in Ballymurphy and the Bogside. Then there was collusion with Loyalist paramilitaries and overlapping membership between the UDR and UVF/LVF. Not to mention internment and brutal treatment of detainees that really amounted to torture. Then you had countless convictions in Diplock courts after suspects had confessions beaten out of them. It wasn't just the Birmingham 6 and Guildford 4 you know.

Now, to point out these incidents is not the same as saying that the existence - and certainly the actions - of the IRA was justified. Much of it is unjustifiable in any terms just as many British Army actions were also unjustifiable.

Both sides are reluctant to face up to the harsh reality of what they've done. There's denial, obfuscation, lies and blanket glorification of military actions. But that leaves SF with a bad look in terms of its apparent wish to be just another political party. Elements within the party give the strong impression that they're more comfortable being at war than at peace.

Ahh! I fully applaud your pursuit of "fairness" but we could disappear down the rabbit hole of the wickedness of British forces in the Troubles; myself and @WolfeTone have been there many times.
What I was particularly querying in this instance was why was the catholic mob so enthusiastic about the assurance that the PIRA hadn't gone away you know. @WolfeTone had earlier argued that the reason the catholic population supported the PIRA in the first place was as their only defence against pogrom by British and Loyalist forces. I had earlier argued that this didn't stack up as from on the ground experience it was clear to me (and Garret Fitzgerald) that there was no realistic threat of the BA running rampage in catholic areas and if there was the PIRA would be hopelessly inadequate to defend against it. @WolfeTone has confirmed that the "defence against pogrom" reason for supporting PIRA had long since vanished in 1995; IMHO it ceased to exist on August 16th 1969 when British troops arrived to impose order. He has instead suggested that many other grievances had taken the place of this justification. I await clarification from him of what those grievances were in 1995.

 

[WolfeTone]

That was/is the mantra, IRA and BA were equal protagonists in the "conflict". To this day this is the central SF/IRA narrative.

Regardless. It is not the point here. The point here that at the time "they haven't gone away, ye know", Adams and Co were actively working towards making the IRA go away - 25yrs ago!

But Gerry knew that they had effectively gone away, just not quite the time to tell the masses.
But have the Danny Morrisons gone away? I believe the PSNI when they say that they have gone political these days but they haven't gone away, you know.

The huff and puff of reminders of that quote still prevails. It is the preserve of hard-line anti-Irish Republicans.
Good luck to them I say, as the sands are shifting below their feet.

For SF it is the IRA Army Council, so again we are reminded that "they haven't gone away, you know".

Well have they or haven't they? In my view the IRA is gone.
If they haven't what evidence of this do you have? Because from every PSNI/Garda report there is no physical, military threat.
If the 'threat' is a political ideology, then I would respectfully remind you that is the very essence of a parliamentary democracy.
If you find the assembly of political ideology through a democratically elected parliament a threat then I dare say, subversive ideology is abound and a lot closer to home.

What were these plenty of other grievances that convinced the catholic mob that they needed the sectarian terrorist threat to be kept alive and well?

Ah jeez Duke, let's not be infantile about this. I have already acknowledged the demands of civil rights movement were broadly acquised to, on paper at least.
That those rights were obtained on the blood of innocent civilians whose lives were considered fodder for 40yrs is one of those other such grievances.

Your repeated referral to the Kingsmill massacre in these exchanges is evidence of your own persistent grievance against SF. It really is becoming tiresome that you cannot acknowledge the legitimate grievances of British State forces and authorities over the period. The 40/50yr cover ups and proposed amnesty point to something far more sinister and deeply embedded other than the 'few bad apples' excuse that you have propagated before.

Help me find it.

You have already identified the 'other grievances' that you seek.

Here is one simple grievance, the public display of the Irish tricolour in public met with the baton charge of the police.

By itself, hardly a revolutionary cause. It does however offer a snapshot into the prevailing sectarian mindset that prevailed through the political and state institutions.

Here is another snapshot.
The expression of the political ideology of an independent Irish Republic alá 1916 Proclaimation was effectively deemed illegal throughout the existence of the NI.

When the great and good of Irish political society were gorging on 50th year celebrations of 1916 in Dublin in 1966, oblivious (apparently) to the plight of their brothers and sisters in NI,
it took until 1995 for a public rally designated as a march for an Irish Republic/United Ireland to be permitted by the British State authorities to march in the centre of Belfast.

That's right, it took 74yrs for the NI state authorities to permit a peaceful public expression by its own people for an All Irish Republic in their own city centre.

 

[Baby boomer]

A wiser man than me (can't remember exactly who) said that the problem with the peace process in the nineties, was that the republican rank and file thought they had won when they'd actually lost. Meanwhile the unionist rank and file thought they'd lost when they'd actually won.

Both sides needed to be slowly cajoled into accepting realities. Thus IRA rhetoric like "not an ounce; not a bullet" and "haven't gone away you know". Equally, unionist paranoia about "IRA in government" etc.

By and large, the SF leadership have done a better job than the unionist parties in bringing their constituency with them. But the very characteristics that enabled them to do so are precisely what marks them out as different from other parties. SF have ended the war and largely avoided splits in the republican movement. That took skill and courage and for that they deserve credit. That does NOT equate to welcoming them as a regular party of government. That's a whole different standard entirely.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@WolfeTone I asked why the catholic mob were so enraptured by the assurance that the IRA hadn't gone away you know in 1995 and you cite the "many grievances". It transpires that the grievances you referred to were at the time historic and the continued existence of the IRA could not be justified by said grievances. The fact is that the sit-yee-ation had transformed from a MOPE feeling of injustice in the '60s to a Tiochaid ar la triumphalism in the '90s. The assurance of the continued existence of the sectarian murder machine was central to that triumphalism.
But heck Mickey D is the President of Ireland and it is above the dignity of his office to engage in mudslinging with Paisleyites.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

A wiser man than me (can't remember exactly who) said that the problem with the peace process in the nineties, was that the republican rank and file thought they had won when they'd actually lost. Meanwhile the unionist rank and file thought they'd lost when they'd actually won.

+1

 

[WolfeTone]

Both sides needed to be slowly cajoled into accepting realities. Thus IRA rhetoric like "not an ounce; not a bullet" and "haven't gone away you know". Equally, unionist paranoia about "IRA in government" etc.

Fair point. The IRA weapons have been decommissioned. The IRA have effectively gone away (as a physical threat).
The Unionist paranoia sadly has not. The prospect of a SF First Minister, democratically elected by the people, is already calling for boycott by Unionists of nominating a deputy First Minister.
Why? Because the democratically elected government of the UK has negotiated a pear-shaped Brexit deal for NI (from their perspective of course) and that is enough for them to threaten to take down political institutions because they are not getting their way.

That does NOT equate to welcoming them as a regular party of government. That's a whole

With respect, and recognising your right to your own political ideology, I have spent 20+ years not welcoming the so-called 'regular' parties into government.

I would more than welcome a turning of the tables.

 

[gianni]

What ?

What on earth has this to do with an otherwise good post.

Are you so steeped in anti-Sinn Fein sentiment that you cannot contribute to the discussion without prefacing your remarks with this almost like a disclaimer.

Who do you think this impresses?

This knee jerk condemnation of SF by some people every time they are mentioned makes no converts. There are many who agree with your perspective, equally there are many who are put off by this unthinking anti-SF bias.

At least Purple usually backs up his anti_SF comments.

Most you us can easily point to clear untruths for each political party.

Why do you think I'm trying to impress anyone? Let alone random, anonymous, strangers on the internet.

It was pertinent to my point about the fake/unsubstantiated tweet.

It was from a 'fake', unknown account:

"The man that Gallagher took the cheque from will be at a press conference tomorrow. #aras11"

SF deny the account had anything to do with them. But somehow McGuinness was able to run with this 'new' information during the debate:

McGuinness: I think Sean should answer the question. And the question is, did he go to a man’s house, a man who spoke to me on the telephone several hours ago, and collect a cheque for €5,000 euro?”

Such serendipity...

 

[WolfeTone]

I asked why the catholic mob were so enraptured by the assurance that the IRA hadn't gone away you know in 1995 and you cite the "many grievances".

With respect Duke, I was citing the worn and withered, the huff and puff, of "they haven't gone away you know" as a bankrupt argument in the face of the political reality of 2021.

Just as your old comrades in Official IRA found out, they huffed and puffed for decades after their obselence, until eventually they just retired and died.
The militarists of PIRA are in the same boat.
The SF today under MLM is vibrant, rejuvenated and never more confident.