Poverty in America

O

OhPinchy

Guest
Article in today's Times says that 35.9 million people in the USA live in poverty (below $9,573 or less for a single person under 65 and $18,810 for a family of four).

45 million Americans (one in six) also do not have healthcare, in a country with some of the world's highest medical prices.

For the country with the biggest economy in the world I find this quite shocking. To me its capitalism gone too far - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Cliched but these figures back it up. It seems to me that the system in America is way too imbalanced and theres no safety net for those at the bottom of the social ladder. Once you fall out of the rat race its damn hard to survive.

I'm all for rewarding success but I feel that America is an example of what can happen when you take it to the extreme - it should still be possible to ensure that those who don't succeed in a capitalist society still can live above a reasonable threshold. Interested to hear views on this...
 
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> Article in today's Times says that 35.9 million people in the USA live in poverty (below $9,573 or less for a single person under 65 and $18,810 for a family of four).

Does the report make clear whether they're talking about relative or absolute poverty?

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> It seems to me that the system in America is way too imbalanced and theres no safety net for those at the bottom of the social ladder. Once you fall out of the rat race its damn hard to survive.

Maybe so but that is part and parcel of the founding culture of the USA. The original idea was that one paid a certain amount of tax to the State and/or Federal Government for certain protections and services but after that you were on your own and had to fend for yourself in terms of welfare, retirement etc. perhaps with the assistance of church, community and other co-operative/voluntary groups. It may not be the way that other countries want to run their affairs but as a soverign nation they are entitled to do it their way and people who don't like it can work to change the system if they see fit.

It's not just mad capitalists who take a slightly different stance on things like this compared to that taken in countries with a stronger welfare state ethos:


[broken link removed]
[broken link removed]
 
Hi OhPinchy,

Well, it's always nice to see another person worrying about the state of the world economy.

It does make you wonder about capitalism a bit and perhaps its not all its cracked up to be doesn't it??

You see that's the thing the capitalism DOESN'T really refer to namely, you can be lucky or unlucky in the system and if you are then its' hard cheese on you matie!!

Don't get me wrong - I'm happy to see entrepeneurs come in and do the business (no pun intended!), but I am afraid there HAS to be a social side to the economy.
If nothing else it's actually more efficient as it allows ultimately to have a fuller/ more complete market.

Again its' all about checks and balances, once you go too far in one direction or another, you're in deep doo-doo.

As for the Libertarian Party, well they are just a bit nutty aren't they?? Remember, the market doesn't always work you know. I do take their point about the idea of a "poverty industry" and that there is a perverse law (Parkinson's Law) whereby more money = more poverty, but you'd have to question is there a total cause and effect occurence here or is it another of the machinations of capitalism and if there wasn't the federal safety net would the US have collapsed by now??

As for you OhPinchy, I think Rainyday might have a spare membership form for the Labour Party handy for you to sign .... :eek

Strange days indeed!

Cheers,

OpusnBill
 
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Unreg- of course they can run their country whichever way they choose, and people can work to change it. However, in America its much harder to get elected than it is here - several millions of dollars are required to run a campaign. This only serves to make it even more difficult for the poor to get representation.

The 35 million Americans below the poverty line are the most vulnerable people in society. It would be only the most foolish, in my opinion, that would suggest that they are fairly represented by the current right-wing administration.

So I agree with you when you state the values that America was founded on, but I am interested in hearing opinions on whether this "on your own" approach is working, as it seems to me to be serving the few and failing the masses.
 
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> As for the Libertarian Party, well they are just a bit nutty aren't they??

That's a matter of opinion. I myself would agree with thye broad thrust of a large number of their policies to be honest.

> So I agree with you when you state the values that America was founded on, but I am interested in hearing opinions on whether this "on your own" approach is working, as it seems to me to be serving the few and failing the masses.

Does c. 12% (i.e. the 35 million mentioned earlier and the figure confirmed by the CIA World Factbook below) of the total population really constitute "the masses"?

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Perhaps YOU could outline what you think the USA or individual states (remember that it's a big country and poverty may be concentrated in specific areas) do to improve matters?
 
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If there are 12% below the poverty line, which is a huge percentage for a modernised country, then it is safe to assume that there is also a huge amount of people just above the poverty line. This would be in keeping with the trend in most first world country where the middle and lower class groups would both be quite large, and a small upper class would have most of the wealth. So its safe to say that there are masses of poor people (both below and not far above the poverty line) in America.

What do I think they should do? I think they should move towards a more social system whereby people would be guaranteed at least basic healthcare (at present it is not sufficient as there are people who die as they do not have access to adequate healthcare) and have a less severe social welfare system because people who do not work still deserve to live in my mind. They could also change their education system to make it more equitable - a kid from the poor neighbourhood should not have to be a basketball star so he can get a grant to go to a $40,000 a year college - kids from all backgrounds (yes this doesnt happen in Ireland but at least we are trying) should have access to affordable education. In turn this would lead to a better educated workforce which would help the economy and reduce crime caused by lack of oppurtunities.
 
Poverty in the US

Hi <Blank>,

> As for the Libertarian Party, well they are just a bit nutty aren't they??

>That's a matter of opinion. I myself would agree with >thye broad thrust of a large number of their policies to >be honest.

Indeed it is my humble opinion, however, I do worry when groups think that the market will provide all - sure don't let Government provide education or health let the market do it. Just let the Government provide a few roads and the odd army to defend the auld homestead....

Not really the most efficient way to run an economy is it?

If you look around practically any economy you'll see things that wouldn't be provided for under Libertarian doctrine - but they provide a useful service to the whole of society and the economy as well.

Libertarians a bit nutty? Well, perhaps it's a bit harsh, but their central tenets seem a bit simplistic to me to be honest. And something that simplistic usually has a rather large hole to drive through at some stage....

Just my two cents as all...

OpusnBill.

PS and yes 12% poverty is a rather large figure for a western economy. You probably should also have a look at income distribution in the US too, where relative poverty (I suspect) will shoot up.. You have to remember that the bigger states are effectively subsdidising the smaller ones (who tend to bleat on about the real homeland of America and that the bigger states are merely fleshpots of ill-doing etc, etc)
 
Re: Poverty in the US

The problem with America is not the the poor don't have enough power. The problem is that the poor believe that they will some day be rich and so they keep voting for people and parties who protect the rich.

"I don't want to get stuck paying huge taxes when I'm a millionaire, so for now I'll just struggle by on my $1.50 per month that I get from recycling bottles".

Capitalism isn't keeping 12% of the American population below the poverty line. The American dream is.

Of course it's not entirely that simple, but it does explain how poor people keep electing rich people in a supposedly democratic country.

-Rd
 
mean distribution

At the end of the day you will some very rich, some very poor and the vast majority in the middle.

0]
 
Re: mean distribution

In my perfect society I wouldn't care too much about the gap between rich and poor. I'd let the rich get as rich as possible.

But I would be concerned about the standard of living of the worst off. I think that's a more useful measure of a society.

-Rd
 
Re: mean distribution

Some-or-other worthy founder member of Amnesty International had a memorable quote about judging the degree of civilisation of a society by how it treated its prisoners, its "poor" (strange adjectival noun, that!) and its elderly. Or maybe it was Ghandi..?

I know I wouldn't fancy living in the States if I weren't a college-educated male RC/Jewish "whitey" with plenty of Oirish-American family connections.

(Funny that that category is usually confused with WASPs...)
 
what about the trades

they do well.
and in America, hard work can move you anywhere.
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Re: what about the trades

and in America, hard work can move you anywhere.
Click to expand...
Tell that to the Hispanic ladies who scrub the toilets, or the Filipino nannies. Have a read of [broken link removed] and see what hard work gets you - usually gets you the minimum wage.
 
look closer to home raindeer

The irish are not adverse to taking advntage of others either.
I guess many of then hispanics are fleeing worse poverty in mexico or south america and thats they way things progress.
Its not a matter of right or wrong or whats fair, thats the way it is.

When you buy something in a shop, do you stop and think that it may have been actually made with child labour in the undeveloped world?

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well, tha's capitalism!

the US tends towards raw capitalism, but the states differ in degree. They see us (Europe) as having semi- or even entirely socialist states, due to the provision of health care etc. Did yous realise yous were living in a socialist state? Came as a bit of a shock to me! :eek
 
socialist state

You must pay for a health service that will not look after you in time to stop you dying
You must pay double for a bed in a public hospital if you pay private insurance
You must pay PRSI for 35 years and whe you are unemployed, you get €138/week for 15 months and then you are means tested (an embarrasing and demeaning procedure) and being one of 3 Irish in a queue of 40 people who never contributed a penny and then being patronised by a petty official who has never been out of work or whose education you paid for

som f'in state
 
US

Well said. The Irish economy would be in some state if it were not for handouts from the EC ( Germany and the UK ) and US investment.


I have spent some time in America and I can tell you it is the greatest system in the world, although it is not perfect.
 
Re: US

The Irish economy would be in some state if it were not for handouts from the EC ( Germany and the UK ) and US investment.
Click to expand...
Irish companies invest more in the US than is invested by US companies in Ireland.
I have spent some time in America and I can tell you it is the greatest system in the world, although it is not perfect.
Click to expand...
Greatest system? Do you mean greatest for everyone, or just for college educated WASPS?
 
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daltonr said, QUOTE:
"The problem is that the poor believe that they will some day be rich and so they keep voting for people and parties who protect the rich.

Capitalism isn't keeping 12% of the American population below the poverty line. The American dream is."

So true!

Bridget said, QUOTE:
"They see us (Europe) as having semi- or even entirely socialist states, due to the provision of health care etc. Did yous realise yous were living in a socialist state?"

I realised most/all European countries have socialist leanings.
 
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