Possible false bids on a house?
- Thread starter WhatsGoingOn
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You should try being more forceful with the EA. We had a similar situation a number of years ago. We had decided on going for an investment property until we saw a house we were happy to move to. Similar situation as the house had been on the market previously and only re-submitted after they did some work to brng it up to scratch.
Made a bid to the EA and we made clear the bid was only open for 2 days and outlined that we were in a strong position to close immediately as not in a chain. 2 days later and no word from EA. I called and he said that the seller wanted €10k more. I made it clear that I did not believe he had put the bid to the seller or he would have called me back with that information. I gave him half day to get back or I would be closing on the investment property (also made it clear I woud ensure the seller would find out about our bid!).
Surprise, surprise, an hour later and the house was ours. I actually spoke with the seller afterwards and he confirmed that the EA had not passed on the initial offer as he was ready to accept any reasonable bid as he had bridging finance.
This is an area that should be regulated in a far greater way. EA's get paid a fortune to handle the sale of property and I certainly think they should have to adhere to some basis ethical principals.
Made a bid to the EA and we made clear the bid was only open for 2 days and outlined that we were in a strong position to close immediately as not in a chain. 2 days later and no word from EA. I called and he said that the seller wanted €10k more. I made it clear that I did not believe he had put the bid to the seller or he would have called me back with that information. I gave him half day to get back or I would be closing on the investment property (also made it clear I woud ensure the seller would find out about our bid!).
Surprise, surprise, an hour later and the house was ours. I actually spoke with the seller afterwards and he confirmed that the EA had not passed on the initial offer as he was ready to accept any reasonable bid as he had bridging finance.
This is an area that should be regulated in a far greater way. EA's get paid a fortune to handle the sale of property and I certainly think they should have to adhere to some basis ethical principals.
They do have to adhere to basic ethical principles, but like in many professions if not all there are bad apples and the introduction of the regulatory committee is being pushed by most qualified auctioneers as it may help clean up the image of the profession.
Hi Lobby,
We found the APTI system to be a breath of fresh air as did our estate agent (decent guy)! APTI's recording is there in the event of any dispute and the ability to see everthing as it happens is impressive and comforting.
If you go back to my first post (http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=444156#post444156) afew months back you will see that we were devestated that an estate agent did not pass on our bid to the seller, we would never have known only for the fact that my father knew the seller. With APTI the seller see's all the bids on their property.
The bad estate agents are few and having come through the process of dealing with a professional estate agent it is good to see an honest days work for an honest days pay (even if the pay is a little high!)
Yeah, I can see how it would alleviate the problem of EAs not informing sellers of bids. Can't figure why an EA wouldn't pass on a bid though (other than the seller had expressly instructed a minimum value), surely it's in the EAs interest to try and get a sale agreed.
What's there to stop the vendor placing bids (anonmously via the EA)? At the moment (I'm an EA) if we're asked to fabricate a bid by a vendor, we refuse. I'm not saying its easier to make one, but the vendor can now verify if his "bid" has been recorded....
What's there to stop the vendor placing bids (anonmously via the EA)? At the moment (I'm an EA) if we're asked to fabricate a bid by a vendor, we refuse. I'm not saying its easier to make one, but the vendor can now verify if his "bid" has been recorded....
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thomasmc01
Registered User
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Ask the auctioneer to provide proff of the offer from the bidders solicitor. Tell the agent that you got stung before and are just being carefull.
In our case I do not know for definite why that particular estate agent didn't pass on our bid to the seller! The seller was told the property was selling for €22K lower than what we were offering! Perhaps he was getting a "bung" from this buyer? Commission + bung was probably greater than Commission + 1 to 2% of €22K! I do not know and do not want to think about it anymore!
Having all the bids recorded indepently will make a fraudulent agent think twice before making up a "bid of the wall"! I believe it is current practice for the two esate agents and auctioneering bodies in Ireland, IAVI and IPAV to request a complete recording of bid activity (names, addresses, amounts etc) in the event of any dispute and it will also be required by law: [broken link removed])
With APTI it was good to have the confidence that an independent recording was there in the event that something went wrong and to feel part of the transaction - It's alot of money to be spending!
thomasmc01
Registered User
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- 37
But that's my point, they're not being indepently recorded (they would be if bids had to be made through APTI). It's only a public version of the EAs list of bidders - and may or may not be false bids. Neither the bidders nor APTI can tell if the EA is submitting genuine bids. If the APTI system is based on "trust" with its agent members then it's no better than the current system.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for such a system. We currently have a bids notebook that has all offers in it, and as it has names/phone numbers of bidders it can't be shown to anyone who asks (we must respect the privacy of bidders). We do regularly get asked if an offer is genuine and we can only hope they trust us when we say it is - anything that would make this more transparent would be welcome.
That's interesting Lobby.
We are obliged only to accept written bids via letter, email or fax with full name, address and contact details........ These are the only form of bids that will be passed onto the client, and the offers are generally directly copied to them.
We are obliged only to accept written bids via letter, email or fax with full name, address and contact details........ These are the only form of bids that will be passed onto the client, and the offers are generally directly copied to them.
Hi Lobby, You sound like a caring esate agent
. As a property buyer that used APTI, I could see my bids on the system shortally after instructing my estate agent to update them. I presume that APTI's independent records cannot be "doctored" by an estate agent who comes under pressure! With the current "in-house recording" by estate agents, I presume it is possible to "edit" details if an estate agent see's problems ahead?, with APTI I would imagine the record is "independent" and cannot be changed. I think APTI's "trust" is that members trust APTI to hold this independent record. I presume the APTI software detects the likelyhood of a false bid?I think you are right about looking for transparency, there is a perception that estate agents are all the same and can't be trusted but as I said in a previous post when you get a good agent your opinion changes.
Goodluck with your business, I hope you are still making a living in a slower market.
Jamie
With modern technology and the internet, it should be possible to put the price of the highest bid on adverts myhome.ie and daft.ie etc.
Would be great if when you click on a properties profile, it would say "Bidding currently at €000,000" - potential buyers could see exactly how much they need to bid.
Another solution would be for all the reputable estate agents to set up an independent bid accepting agency. Need not be a huge operation - handful of staff and some computer software. Could be funded by very very small percentage levy on fees. Anyone putting a bid on a property has to ring up the bidding agency who record and verify the details before passing onto the estate agent/seller. Information on current highest bid is also made available to the public online. Could have rules like in auctions - once you bid you are liable - to rule out people putting in false bids to bump up the price.
Would be great if when you click on a properties profile, it would say "Bidding currently at €000,000" - potential buyers could see exactly how much they need to bid.
Another solution would be for all the reputable estate agents to set up an independent bid accepting agency. Need not be a huge operation - handful of staff and some computer software. Could be funded by very very small percentage levy on fees. Anyone putting a bid on a property has to ring up the bidding agency who record and verify the details before passing onto the estate agent/seller. Information on current highest bid is also made available to the public online. Could have rules like in auctions - once you bid you are liable - to rule out people putting in false bids to bump up the price.
R
Roo
Guest
Hi,
Fristly, this is my first post, but I've found this website very useful for ... well ... just about everthing!
We are house hunting at the moment and to date the EA's we have dealt with have been excellent ... until yesterday.
We spotted a house about a month ago that we were interested in but at the time were considering makeing an offer on another property - which in the end we were outbid on. So this week, we decided to take a look at the other house and rang to see what the current situation was. We were told it was still on the market and had no current bids so we made an appointment to see it yesterday.
While we were viewing the house, my husband made a comment to me upstairs that he thought it was overpriced. The EA who was downstairs at the time, heard this and suddenly there was a bid on the house of 35k under the asking price that according to him had been there since day one. I pointed out that I had asked his office if there were any bids on the property and after checking they confirmed that there were none - at which point the EA made excuses about it taking about 20mins to register a bid and the bidders details on the computer and gave the impression that he couldnt be bothered.
He also started quoting how his company were achieving or exceeding asking prices on property at the moment - which is not what we're seeing in the current market as buyers! And also referred to another house on the same road which was on at a higher price. It was us who had to point out to him that the house he was refering to was on for more than 6 months, had an extra bedroom, was in great condition (which the one he was selling was not) and had just dropped their asking price by 60k. He didnt seem to really care.
Ok, we havent put an offer in, but we are interested in a second viewing but are not over joyed at the fact that if we do put an offer in that we will have to deal with him. The house is empty for a substantial amount of time so the suggestion of posting our offer to the owners to make sure they are aware of it wont work this time.
I suppose I'm just really annoyed and like the rest of the posts feel that the EA is just not being honest.
Ok, rant over!
Fristly, this is my first post, but I've found this website very useful for ... well ... just about everthing!
We are house hunting at the moment and to date the EA's we have dealt with have been excellent ... until yesterday.
We spotted a house about a month ago that we were interested in but at the time were considering makeing an offer on another property - which in the end we were outbid on. So this week, we decided to take a look at the other house and rang to see what the current situation was. We were told it was still on the market and had no current bids so we made an appointment to see it yesterday.
While we were viewing the house, my husband made a comment to me upstairs that he thought it was overpriced. The EA who was downstairs at the time, heard this and suddenly there was a bid on the house of 35k under the asking price that according to him had been there since day one. I pointed out that I had asked his office if there were any bids on the property and after checking they confirmed that there were none - at which point the EA made excuses about it taking about 20mins to register a bid and the bidders details on the computer and gave the impression that he couldnt be bothered.
He also started quoting how his company were achieving or exceeding asking prices on property at the moment - which is not what we're seeing in the current market as buyers! And also referred to another house on the same road which was on at a higher price. It was us who had to point out to him that the house he was refering to was on for more than 6 months, had an extra bedroom, was in great condition (which the one he was selling was not) and had just dropped their asking price by 60k. He didnt seem to really care.
Ok, we havent put an offer in, but we are interested in a second viewing but are not over joyed at the fact that if we do put an offer in that we will have to deal with him. The house is empty for a substantial amount of time so the suggestion of posting our offer to the owners to make sure they are aware of it wont work this time.
I suppose I'm just really annoyed and like the rest of the posts feel that the EA is just not being honest.
Ok, rant over!
R
Roo
Guest
thanks thomas22, its certainly worth a try!
V
Vicky_2
Guest
This is more or less what this www.apti.ie thing seems to be. I have registered with them and there is a "demo" property listed, it gives an example of how the system works. I am able to see Bidder 1, Bidder 2 etc and the amount. I cannot see their names. So, if you want to see the bidding on a property ask the estate agent to add your details for that property and then once they do you can see past bids.
They are a bit like a bid acceptance agency as you mention. But wouldn't they need a license if they were to accept bids from users? I mean if they accept bids themselves they are basically agents?
I like the way it is. It is professional and they appear to be independent and genuinely fair to everyone. I think once this takes off everyone will want an agent that uses APTI?
As a seller at the moment the great problem for sellers is that estate agents are not passing on bids for their properties and are in favour of large housing estates and developers instead. I read about this in a paper recently. I think this service will mean that estate agents will pass on all bids as the bidder will see from APTI that his/her bid has not been included. Interesting service.
Does this reduce the need for private seller and sell it yourself and sef sell? I would think it does and I am surprised that estate agents have not this kind of service in place already.
No, it isn't. Just becuase the bids are available to view on a website doesn't mean they are genuine. They could all still be false bids! Slightly more hassle for an EA to submit than under the regular system, but still relatively easy to do nonetheless.
A system whereby the BIDDER submits the bid to the website is the only way to ensure transparency (and even still, bids are not legally enforceable so a vendor can ask his mates to submit bids so even that system isn't perfect).
G
GerL
Guest
It is the estate agent that uploads the bids therefore it is up to them to "be concerned" with the authenticity of the bidder. An estate agent must take due diligence that the bidder is a valid person. It is against the professional code of conduct of both the IPAV and IAVI to accept irregular bids and I am surprised you do not know this! It will also be enforceable in law by the NPSRA that an estate agent has this legal responsibility firmly on his/her doorstep!
I do not know why you think this? It is the estate agents responsibility! A bidder submitting bids would be a joke - Consider the amounts involved here! If an estate agent is "genuinely conned" by a false bidder then the only party that would do this is someone "acting on behalf of the seller" This is against the professional code of conduct of both IPAV and IAVI and will be enforced in law by the NPSRA.
An independent recording will help estate agents that find their credibility questioned and defend them in the ensuing lawsuit that could follow. Lobby I think you have to accept the old days are gone! Tribuneral this, Tribuneral that! People no longer expect high ethics it is their given right!