R
reilly4
Guest
Re: poroton
how are your poroton blocks working out; had you any problems with engineers/architects building regs etc.are you happy with the end product and how long do you thing keeping out the rain will last....i want to use this system but my engineer things i am mad!!!!!!
how are your poroton blocks working out; had you any problems with engineers/architects building regs etc.are you happy with the end product and how long do you thing keeping out the rain will last....i want to use this system but my engineer things i am mad!!!!!!
Re: poroton
I'm awaiting a quote for the system from FBT. My architect (technician) is very sceptical about all the new build types such as ICF etc. However, as long as a system has an IAB cert he has no issue with it.
[broken link removed]
The building regs are open to interpretation. For example, some engineers believe that mechanical ventilation systems are just money wasters and the only way to go is to stick big holes in the wall of every room. My point being there are no issues with building regs.
I suppose your engineer believes that "as long as its done right" you can't beat a regular block cavity wall. I've heard this several times. I'm well acquainted with a PHD educated engineer working in industry that I've had this argument with and even he couldn't give better arguments than "tried and tested". Which in this country apparently means "won't fall down". Its become very obvious that the irish build trade think that building technology peaked with the arrival of the partial fill insulation cavity wall.
If its in anyway reassuring, either aldi or lidl (can't remember which) built a new store in carlow recently and it was built with Poroton blocks.
Anyway good luck,
SAS
I'm awaiting a quote for the system from FBT. My architect (technician) is very sceptical about all the new build types such as ICF etc. However, as long as a system has an IAB cert he has no issue with it.
[broken link removed]
The building regs are open to interpretation. For example, some engineers believe that mechanical ventilation systems are just money wasters and the only way to go is to stick big holes in the wall of every room. My point being there are no issues with building regs.
I suppose your engineer believes that "as long as its done right" you can't beat a regular block cavity wall. I've heard this several times. I'm well acquainted with a PHD educated engineer working in industry that I've had this argument with and even he couldn't give better arguments than "tried and tested". Which in this country apparently means "won't fall down". Its become very obvious that the irish build trade think that building technology peaked with the arrival of the partial fill insulation cavity wall.
If its in anyway reassuring, either aldi or lidl (can't remember which) built a new store in carlow recently and it was built with Poroton blocks.
Anyway good luck,
SAS
R
reilly4
Guest
Re: poroton
i am going to use poroton blocks and was wondering just in case water was to get in can i use some external barrier to make sure h20 does not.....any thoughts
i am going to use poroton blocks and was wondering just in case water was to get in can i use some external barrier to make sure h20 does not.....any thoughts
C
Cliffy2
Guest
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
Hi folks, new to this so bear with me.
I am also looking at the Poroton option but was wondering if anyone has some recent personnal experience. ie. What particular block are you choosing? In terms of cost does it work out much more expensive than standard cavity block?
Also i have been told that the poroton will give a u-value of approx 0.27 versus the the standard cavity block with 60mm internal insulation of approx 0.4. does this sound right?
Also, i have read that some people are laying the poroton blocks thmeselves. Is this what most are doing or is it easier to get a blocklayer and if so what kind of price are they quoting. Finally what kind of heating systems are people using with the poroton?
sorry for all the questions but hoping to start self build in the next couiple of months so trying to get everything sorted.
thanks
cliffy
Hi folks, new to this so bear with me.
I am also looking at the Poroton option but was wondering if anyone has some recent personnal experience. ie. What particular block are you choosing? In terms of cost does it work out much more expensive than standard cavity block?
Also i have been told that the poroton will give a u-value of approx 0.27 versus the the standard cavity block with 60mm internal insulation of approx 0.4. does this sound right?
Also, i have read that some people are laying the poroton blocks thmeselves. Is this what most are doing or is it easier to get a blocklayer and if so what kind of price are they quoting. Finally what kind of heating systems are people using with the poroton?
sorry for all the questions but hoping to start self build in the next couiple of months so trying to get everything sorted.
thanks
cliffy
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
Hi,
I got a quote for a 3800 sq ft house from FBT for the T8 which came in around 60K. This gives a u-value of 0.18 but the wall will be 425 mm thick which is a downside. This included solid internal walls upstairs and downstairs.
FBt advised that you can do it yourself but that they going rate for laying the blocks would be 0.50 - 65 cent per block as opposed to 1.50 for regular blocks. In practise though I don't see any block layer being willing to do my house for that price.
The heating system you opt for should depend on the overall insulation of the structure. There are companies that will do the heat load for your structure based on your insulation spec.
I haven't decided whether I'll be going the poroton route myself. Still looking at other options.
Good luck,
SAS
Hi,
I got a quote for a 3800 sq ft house from FBT for the T8 which came in around 60K. This gives a u-value of 0.18 but the wall will be 425 mm thick which is a downside. This included solid internal walls upstairs and downstairs.
FBt advised that you can do it yourself but that they going rate for laying the blocks would be 0.50 - 65 cent per block as opposed to 1.50 for regular blocks. In practise though I don't see any block layer being willing to do my house for that price.
The heating system you opt for should depend on the overall insulation of the structure. There are companies that will do the heat load for your structure based on your insulation spec.
I haven't decided whether I'll be going the poroton route myself. Still looking at other options.
Good luck,
SAS
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
Hi sas,
Very interesting to see the quote from FBT. €60K is a bit steep.
What did you think of this quote?
Was considering using Poroton myself but at this price I'd say that will be out of my budget.
One final question... did you compare this to quotes for traditional methods (cavity wall, drylined internal, etc...). If so what prices did they come in at?
Thanks,
gr000
Hi sas,
Very interesting to see the quote from FBT. €60K is a bit steep.
What did you think of this quote?
Was considering using Poroton myself but at this price I'd say that will be out of my budget.
One final question... did you compare this to quotes for traditional methods (cavity wall, drylined internal, etc...). If so what prices did they come in at?
Thanks,
gr000
Re: poroton
My understanding is that these blocks are meant to be slightly porous and that the render used would typically be lime (also permeable). The idea is that the walls+render are thick enough that water will not permeate all the way through to the inside while at the same time allowing moisture to travel from the inside to the outside ("breathable"). If I am correct in thinking this then it would also be a mistake to render these blocks with an impermeable layer. Is this the case?
My understanding is that these blocks are meant to be slightly porous and that the render used would typically be lime (also permeable). The idea is that the walls+render are thick enough that water will not permeate all the way through to the inside while at the same time allowing moisture to travel from the inside to the outside ("breathable"). If I am correct in thinking this then it would also be a mistake to render these blocks with an impermeable layer. Is this the case?
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
I was actually happy enough with the quote. A timberframe company quoted me 61K for a regular spec timber frame. Also, that quote is for the T8 which gives a u-value of 0.18. And the decrement delay of the poroton block can't be dismissed when you take into account how hot our summers seem to be getting.
If you want to compare to cavity wall, drylined internally then you'd be going for a much lower spec block which comes in around 20 - 25K for me house. And you don't get any of the cold bridging with poroton that you get when you dryline.
Just be careful to compare like with like when looking at the price.
Thanks
SAS
I was actually happy enough with the quote. A timberframe company quoted me 61K for a regular spec timber frame. Also, that quote is for the T8 which gives a u-value of 0.18. And the decrement delay of the poroton block can't be dismissed when you take into account how hot our summers seem to be getting.
If you want to compare to cavity wall, drylined internally then you'd be going for a much lower spec block which comes in around 20 - 25K for me house. And you don't get any of the cold bridging with poroton that you get when you dryline.
Just be careful to compare like with like when looking at the price.
Thanks
SAS
Re: poroton
You could clad it in timber, I;ve heard other people have done that and you could leave gaps for the wall to breathe.
This link gives examples of how the blocks can be incorporated into various wall types
[broken link removed]
You could clad it in timber, I;ve heard other people have done that and you could leave gaps for the wall to breathe.
This link gives examples of how the blocks can be incorporated into various wall types
[broken link removed]
C
Cliffy2
Guest
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
Thanks SAS for the Reply.
I dont think my budget would stretch to the T8 blocks. however If my figures are correct then I still think it is worth going for the T12 block.
What other options are you looking at. Like to the rest of you I am looking at other options but there is nothing jumping out as being much better.
Has anyone actually been in an Irish built Poroton built house/spoken to people who have lived in them. Are they seeing the savings that we are being told about. I am hoping to visit one tomorrow but its only being built at the moment.
One other thing, this may be a stupid question, but I can see all the advantages of the poroton block for the outside walls but what is the advantage of them for the internal walls. Would it be possible or cheaper to use normal blocks for the internal walls?
cliffy
Thanks SAS for the Reply.
I dont think my budget would stretch to the T8 blocks. however If my figures are correct then I still think it is worth going for the T12 block.
What other options are you looking at. Like to the rest of you I am looking at other options but there is nothing jumping out as being much better.
Has anyone actually been in an Irish built Poroton built house/spoken to people who have lived in them. Are they seeing the savings that we are being told about. I am hoping to visit one tomorrow but its only being built at the moment.
One other thing, this may be a stupid question, but I can see all the advantages of the poroton block for the outside walls but what is the advantage of them for the internal walls. Would it be possible or cheaper to use normal blocks for the internal walls?
cliffy
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
I looked at the kingspan TEK system but that came in at 161K just for the tek system. Too much money I feel.
Looked at ICF and was on site with Euromac and Polarwall but I've sort of dismissed that. I've heard several stories where the rendering system on an ICF house failed and had to be redone. Still, I'm going on site with Nudura next week so I'll see.
If budget is a constraint I'm told that a partial fill cavity wall using the latest kingspan boards ( can't remember the exact product, its the phenolic boards) and drylining the external walls with insulation backed plasterboard gives a u-value of 0.15. The person that quoted that though is on another forum is anti anything new it would appear. I've heard that people are very happy with the full fill ecobead platinum product which is also an option I've looked at. I realistically see these as my fall back if I can't be convinced to innovate
I don't know anyone who is actually living in one of the houses but FBT should be able to provide you with references for selfbuilders who would have moved in by now.
I asked FBT the same question about the internal walls. What they said was that the proton blocks are better insulated (hence you could zone heat the house) and better at sound insulation than regular blocks. Both reasonable points. They also said that you won't have to worry about cutting blocks to match the height of the poroton walls as the internal poroton blocks are the same height as the external blocks. The final thing they said is that you will have a uniform plastering substrate which makes sense. You plaster poroton walls with 10mm gymsum plaster internally. If you had regular masonry walls I'm fairly sure you first have to do a scratch coat and then you plaster that.
Let us know what you think after the site visit.
SAS
I looked at the kingspan TEK system but that came in at 161K just for the tek system. Too much money I feel.
Looked at ICF and was on site with Euromac and Polarwall but I've sort of dismissed that. I've heard several stories where the rendering system on an ICF house failed and had to be redone. Still, I'm going on site with Nudura next week so I'll see.
If budget is a constraint I'm told that a partial fill cavity wall using the latest kingspan boards ( can't remember the exact product, its the phenolic boards) and drylining the external walls with insulation backed plasterboard gives a u-value of 0.15. The person that quoted that though is on another forum is anti anything new it would appear. I've heard that people are very happy with the full fill ecobead platinum product which is also an option I've looked at. I realistically see these as my fall back if I can't be convinced to innovate
I don't know anyone who is actually living in one of the houses but FBT should be able to provide you with references for selfbuilders who would have moved in by now.
I asked FBT the same question about the internal walls. What they said was that the proton blocks are better insulated (hence you could zone heat the house) and better at sound insulation than regular blocks. Both reasonable points. They also said that you won't have to worry about cutting blocks to match the height of the poroton walls as the internal poroton blocks are the same height as the external blocks. The final thing they said is that you will have a uniform plastering substrate which makes sense. You plaster poroton walls with 10mm gymsum plaster internally. If you had regular masonry walls I'm fairly sure you first have to do a scratch coat and then you plaster that.
Let us know what you think after the site visit.
SAS
R
reilly4
Guest
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
was in a poroton block built house outside cork.It was very cold outside and i could not believe the temp inside the house,it was solid quiet and i was very impressed i want to use this system in the cork area and believe that this system will allow for better living conditions,less energy needed to heat etc....looked at timberframe seriously researched and would not take one as a present now....lots of lies being told etc....i would consider a block build but need to know more on insulation for interior that will not release gases and give proper u values ,,,would love some imput regards by the way i live in north cork
was in a poroton block built house outside cork.It was very cold outside and i could not believe the temp inside the house,it was solid quiet and i was very impressed i want to use this system in the cork area and believe that this system will allow for better living conditions,less energy needed to heat etc....looked at timberframe seriously researched and would not take one as a present now....lots of lies being told etc....i would consider a block build but need to know more on insulation for interior that will not release gases and give proper u values ,,,would love some imput regards by the way i live in north cork
C
Cliffy2
Guest
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
SAS, are you sure about the U-value for partial fill cavity wall. I've been told much higher values. I tried one of those u-value calculators but didn't quite understand it (i must be a bit thick). Anyway can anyone confirm the theoretical U-value for a partial fill cavity wall with internal insulation?
SAS, are you sure about the U-value for partial fill cavity wall. I've been told much higher values. I tried one of those u-value calculators but didn't quite understand it (i must be a bit thick). Anyway can anyone confirm the theoretical U-value for a partial fill cavity wall with internal insulation?
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
I'm running a serious risk of getting excommunicated but here you are
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055037388
You're looking for a posting by Ardara. For the record, based on his track record of postings, he believes that there is nothing you can't do with regular block and partial fill insulation boards. He does however, appear also be honest and knowledgeable.
My only issue with standard build is that I have yet to be in a large one (2500Sq ft plus) that wasn't extortionately expensive to heat. We seem to have this idea that big houses should be hard to heat and that makes it acceptable.
I'm running a serious risk of getting excommunicated but here you are
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055037388
You're looking for a posting by Ardara. For the record, based on his track record of postings, he believes that there is nothing you can't do with regular block and partial fill insulation boards. He does however, appear also be honest and knowledgeable.
My only issue with standard build is that I have yet to be in a large one (2500Sq ft plus) that wasn't extortionately expensive to heat. We seem to have this idea that big houses should be hard to heat and that makes it acceptable.
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
Good luck with that because I couldn't find anything substantial to support any theory that off gasing of any signifact amount occurs.
As regards the proper U-Values. The issue would appear to be 2 fold, 1 being workmanship.
The other one is airtightness. Which makes perfect sense. As an extreme example, you could have 5 feet of insulation in your walls but if there is a window open you won't heat the room. An air tight structure gives your insulation the opportunity to do its job.
This means no chimneys, full stop. It's not something alot of us will be willing to do. My wife and I absolutely love an open fire but we have 90% decided to remove them from our planned house. The building regs (I'm told) also mandate that you have a wall vent in any room with an openfire\stove which also compounds the problem.
It would be interesting to see a house built the regular way to current building regs that was completely airtight. I don't think there will be too many of them though.
Good luck with that because I couldn't find anything substantial to support any theory that off gasing of any signifact amount occurs.
As regards the proper U-Values. The issue would appear to be 2 fold, 1 being workmanship.
The other one is airtightness. Which makes perfect sense. As an extreme example, you could have 5 feet of insulation in your walls but if there is a window open you won't heat the room. An air tight structure gives your insulation the opportunity to do its job.
This means no chimneys, full stop. It's not something alot of us will be willing to do. My wife and I absolutely love an open fire but we have 90% decided to remove them from our planned house. The building regs (I'm told) also mandate that you have a wall vent in any room with an openfire\stove which also compounds the problem.
It would be interesting to see a house built the regular way to current building regs that was completely airtight. I don't think there will be too many of them though.
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
SAS, It might not be necessary to get rid of all chimneys...I was recently on a site where this guy had put a pipe from the out side through the founds up into the fireplace. He was then going to attach this pipe to the back of a stove which had a closed chimney. I believe the stove was going to be airtight. Sounded like he had a solution to the problem...do you think it would work?
Also if you make a house airtight you should really have some sort of ventilation system.....would this not satisfy the building regs as regards having a vent in a room with an open fire stove?
SAS, It might not be necessary to get rid of all chimneys...I was recently on a site where this guy had put a pipe from the out side through the founds up into the fireplace. He was then going to attach this pipe to the back of a stove which had a closed chimney. I believe the stove was going to be airtight. Sounded like he had a solution to the problem...do you think it would work?
Also if you make a house airtight you should really have some sort of ventilation system.....would this not satisfy the building regs as regards having a vent in a room with an open fire stove?
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
Hi,
I had originally hoped to do just that. i.e Have a closed stove that had its own independant airsupply from outside. I had then hoped that a mechanical ventilation system would satisfy the requirements for ventilation in a room with an open fire\stove. I was told however, that it does not. I want to get a second opinion though.
I suppose part of the argument might be that if your stove was leaking carbon monoxide and you weren't aware of it, in the event of a power cut the mechanical ventilation system wouldn't be running and you could have a problem.
I'd be interested in seeing if its possible to have the wall vent in the room with the stove and try and seal off the major effect of the vent from the rest of the house by using a well fitted internal door with draft proofing strips and a draft excluder along the bottom. Of course this only works if people learn to keep the door closed!
I'll post again here if I do find anything on this.
SAS
Hi,
I had originally hoped to do just that. i.e Have a closed stove that had its own independant airsupply from outside. I had then hoped that a mechanical ventilation system would satisfy the requirements for ventilation in a room with an open fire\stove. I was told however, that it does not. I want to get a second opinion though.
I suppose part of the argument might be that if your stove was leaking carbon monoxide and you weren't aware of it, in the event of a power cut the mechanical ventilation system wouldn't be running and you could have a problem.
I'd be interested in seeing if its possible to have the wall vent in the room with the stove and try and seal off the major effect of the vent from the rest of the house by using a well fitted internal door with draft proofing strips and a draft excluder along the bottom. Of course this only works if people learn to keep the door closed!
I'll post again here if I do find anything on this.
SAS
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
I've just had a look at the building regs online an Technical Guidance Document J, Heat producing applicances and found this:
1.2 Each appliance should be
(a) room sealed or
(b) contained in a room or space that has a permanent ventilation opening.
So the question is what is a room sealed appliance. I'll have to do more digging.
I've just had a look at the building regs online an Technical Guidance Document J, Heat producing applicances and found this:
1.2 Each appliance should be
(a) room sealed or
(b) contained in a room or space that has a permanent ventilation opening.
So the question is what is a room sealed appliance. I'll have to do more digging.
Re: Key Post: Poroton Blocks
According to An Bord Gais, this is what a room sealed appliance is:
‘A room-sealed appliance obtains its combustion air via a special flue arrangement. The flue configuration allows for the flue products to be discharged via one flue direct to atmosphere and a second separate flue draws the combustion air, from atmosphere, into the appliance. The appliance is therefore sealed from the room. No air from the room enters the appliance and no flue products can exit the appliance into the room.’
http://www.bge.ie/networks/index.jsp?1nID=102&2nID=116&pID=334&nID=341
I suppose the next thing is to find a stove that is airtight. If you can open it to put fuel in it (e.g. wood pellets as oppose to a gas operated stove) does this make it a non room sealed appliance?????
According to An Bord Gais, this is what a room sealed appliance is:
‘A room-sealed appliance obtains its combustion air via a special flue arrangement. The flue configuration allows for the flue products to be discharged via one flue direct to atmosphere and a second separate flue draws the combustion air, from atmosphere, into the appliance. The appliance is therefore sealed from the room. No air from the room enters the appliance and no flue products can exit the appliance into the room.’
http://www.bge.ie/networks/index.jsp?1nID=102&2nID=116&pID=334&nID=341
I suppose the next thing is to find a stove that is airtight. If you can open it to put fuel in it (e.g. wood pellets as oppose to a gas operated stove) does this make it a non room sealed appliance?????