Planning/Retention Granny Flat

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Leesider32

Registered User
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Hi all,

Would like some advice on this. Bought a house with a building at the end of the back garden which is plumbed, wired etc and was used as a beauty salon by the previous owners. It is under the size required for planning but we bought it with it specified that it can only be used for ancillary use, so storage etc. but not residential or commercial.

We want to do a bit of AirBnB, maybe even a longer term renter or use it for friends etc. visiting us. I wouldn't say our relationship with our neighbour is the best so I want to have everything in order in case she would bring it to the attention of the council etc.

Should I go for retention or change of use or what is the best and quickest way of getting it through planning?

Thanks
 
Leesider32 said:
It is under the size required for planning
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There is no allowed size for a detached residential space. There are exemptions for sheds, but any other use requires planning. Is the structure up to the standards required (building regs compliant) for habitable space in terms of minimum size, insulation, electrics, ventilation, etc.?

You will almost certainly be refused permission for Air BnB style letting or residential use though. Very difficult to get that through.
 
What's the overall size of the structure? Has it got its own ESB connection, can bins be brought in and out for rubbish without going through the main residence, is there a separate entrance to get to it, what sort of heating, cooking, toilet facilities, sleeping quarters, washing machine, TV connection, etc, etc, etc. A lot more involved before you get permission from any Co Council to allow someone to live there and rightly so.
 
Leesider32 said:
Bought a house with a building at the end of the back garden which is plumbed, wired etc and was used as a beauty salon by the previous owners.

It is under the size required for planning but we bought it with it specified that it can only be used for ancillary use, so storage etc. but not residential or commercial.
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It may have been specified in your contract that it can only be used for storage. But that's just because the sellers were not able to provide you planning permission so that clause is to get around that. It doesn't change the fact it was used commercially. And that 'use' can not be stopped now by the council if enough time has lapsed.

When I sell a house I own, which has a converted garage at the side, I'll be selling as a house with a garage rather than a house with a flat. To give you a more concrete example. I'll also have no issue confirming in writing that it's been a flat for the last 20 years. For some of that time the council was paying me rent on my 'illegal' flat.
 
Leo said:
You will almost certainly be refused permission for Air BnB style letting or residential use though. Very difficult to get that through.
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It's absolutely ridiculous with the country awash with 'illegal' dwellings that none of us can go down the legal route to get them planning permission. All this talk of densities and not allowed to go up nor to convert space into dwellings. As for rules on sizes. It's absolutely amazing to me that we keep hearing this but it's ok to put an entire family into a box in a hotel. For years !
 
Bronte said:
It's absolutely amazing to me that we keep hearing this but it's ok to put an entire family into a box in a hotel. For years !
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One for a thread of its own, but the solution to this is not facilitating families living in glorified sheds.
 
Bronte said:
It may have been specified in your contract that it can only be used for storage. But that's just because the sellers were not able to provide you planning permission so that clause is to get around that. It doesn't change the fact it was used commercially. And that 'use' can not be stopped now by the council if enough time has lapsed.

When I sell a house I own, which has a converted garage at the side, I'll be selling as a house with a garage rather than a house with a flat. To give you a more concrete example. I'll also have no issue confirming in writing that it's been a flat for the last 20 years. For some of that time the council was paying me rent on my 'illegal' flat.
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Yeah that's exactly the way it went down! It's size is around 25sqm, electricity and water are off the main house, no cooking area (microwave max), combi gas boiler, shared entrance with neighbour at side of main house, refuse can go through shared entrance.....so it was built for commercial use but probably doesn't meet some specifications.

It was built in 2013 so going by the logic above should I not say anything, as mentioned my concern is the neighbour could kick up a stink and going to the extreme the council could request us to pull it down?
 
Might also have an issue in regard to a fire hazard. What if a fire broke out, how would the fire brigade gain access? Personally I cannot see you getting permission for any sort of habitable space. Maybe you should think about putting an extension on your own house with separate entrance, or similar?
 
Ok if I go for planning and don't get it as most it as most people are suggesting will happen could the council ask for it to be taken down? Take out current features that make it habitable? Or just say don't use it for residential and leave as is?

If I don't go for the planning is there a certain time period after the build date (2013 in this case) that the council can't ask me to pull it down even if it is being used for residential purposes and my neighbour complains to the council?
 
Leesider32 said:
could the council ask for it to be taken down? Take out current features that make it habitable?
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The latter is most likely.

Leesider32 said:
If I don't go for the planning is there a certain time period after the build date (2013 in this case) that the council can't ask me to pull it down even if it is being used for residential purposes and my neighbour complains to the council?
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No, such usage over time of a sub-standard structure never becomes OK. Any space to be let must meet the minimum standards.
 
If it’s being used as a shed and it’s below the floor area for which planning permission is required (ie if it’s exempt from pp) you will not be asked to take it down and no one can force you to remove it. Phone the planning dept of your local authority and they will advise you whether it’s exempt or not - you don’t have to specify the address.
You will not get a grant of permission for this to be used as a dwelling so I would advise not to invest time or money in this regard.
The period of time after which the council cannot take enforcement action is 7 years - but this is 7 years from when it commenced use for residential purposes, not from when it was built.
 
Thanks for your replies on this, going to do a bit more digging but does look like a bit of rabbit hole so not going to go too deep!
 
Leo said:
No, such usage over time of a sub-standard structure never becomes OK. Any space to be let must meet the minimum standards.
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Chrissy28 said:
The period of time after which the council cannot take enforcement action is 7 years - but this is 7 years from when it commenced use for residential purposes, not from when it was built.
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Can anyone reconcile these two statements or show if either one is incorrect ?
 
cremeegg said:
Can anyone reconcile these two statements or show if either one is incorrect ?
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The legislation covering minimum standards for rented accommodation are set in the Housing (Standards for Rented Houses) Regulations 2017 legislation, so are completely separate from planning regs. Regardless of how long a property has been rented for, it must meet these standards.

The 7 rule is a bit of a myth. The 7 year, or in many cases 12 year limit applies to LA enforcement options, but just because something has stood longer than this time does not mean the structure or usage is approved. Any future development on the site will be refused until such time as the unauthorised structure or use is regularised. If there were any conditions attached the the original development on the site regarding subdividing or erecting further habitable space (common enough now, but may not have been when the site was originally developed), then there are no limits on the enforcement period.

I'm not 100% sure, but the fact that the OP has bought this structure with it specified under the contract as non-habitable space likely reset the enforcement clock.
 
cremeegg said:
Can anyone reconcile these two statements or show if either one is incorrect ?
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There are time limits meaning the council can't make you take it down.

Separate to that are the housing standards. In my experience with councils and from what I've seen the council isn't interested in enforcing standards, they don't have the man power for it, they don't want to lose landlords if they impose standards and they are begging for landlords to take on tenants if my experience going with HAP is anything to go by. Literally the councils don't want to know about standards as they are too preoccupied with actually housing people.
 
Leo said:
I'm not 100% sure, but the fact that the OP has bought this structure with it specified under the contract as non-habitable space likely reset the enforcement clock.
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All the OP would have to certify is that the structure was used as x for the last y number of years.

What experience have you of councils making people take down converted garages and sheds. I converted a house into two flats and both are let to the council. All they wanted from me was proof I owned the place. The council doesn't ask for proof of planning. Which I didn't have anyway. The city street that property is in is full of such properties.
 
Bronte said:
What experience have you of councils making people take down converted garages and sheds.
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None personally bar reading some of the enforcement orders issued by Dublin City Council. They receive over 1000 complaints per annum, in the majority of complaints, retention is granted but they still issue 100's of enforcement orders every year. Only a small few cases end up in the district courts when the owners refuse to comply.
 
Sometimes they make it to the High Court and cost in the tens of thousands. Plenty of other examples in the courts records, but most people will remove unauthorised development, it's rare to see wins over the LAs in these cases.
 
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