Permanent TSB options coming off a 3 year fixed

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
Just finished our fixed term for year at 4.99% with permo.

They've offered us these options

Tracker Variable Rate (ECB + 3.25%) : 4.25%
LTV Variable Rate: 4.15%
2 Year Fixed: 5.25%
5 Year Fixed: 5.75%
7 Year Fixed: 6.1%
10 Year Fixed: 6.1%

On paper it would seem to me that the tracker would be the best option of the variable rates in the medium term anyway since it would avoid permo deciding to put their rates up outside the ECB. 7 and 10 years are too long and the rates are just too high.

With the fixed rates, I guess the call then would be will the ECB raise rates 1% over the next 2 years, 1.5% over 5 years? I guess even if they do we'd still be saving money as the rates rise to meet these figures.

Opinions?
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
those rates are fairly high.. im coming off a two year fixed next month with ptsb. those rates depress me!
I hear ya! What would you go for out of those?

Permo don't have the full rates on their site for existing customers but I found what looks similar here

(I don't have enough posts to post a link but it's the first result on google when you search for: john mullane permanent tsb)

It matches the rates I was offered.

The tribune wrote an article on the bad offers to existing customers yesterday also.

(again google: banks heap misery on those in negative equity)

I'm not sure how exact they are though in their comment
"At Permanent TSB, if you are a new customer you can get a two-year mortgage loan fixed at 3.1%. If you are an existing customer you would be paying 5.25%. If you are a new customer borrowing for five years from PTSB, the rate is 3.7% and if you are an existing customer you are going to be asked to pay 5.75%," he said.
From the chart it looks like the 3.1% and 3.7% are LTV <50%
 

csirl

Frequent Poster
Messages
2,162
With the fixed rates, I guess the call then would be will the ECB raise rates 1% over the next 2 years, 1.5% over 5 years? I guess even if they do we'd still be saving money as the rates rise to meet these figures.
Your 2 year rate is 1% above the tracker rate, so you'd probably need the ECB to raise rates by 2% over the next 2 years to break even. Remember that if you take this rate today, you will be paying 1% more immediately. You will need this rate to be 1% below (not equal) at some stage to recoup this money i.e. (+1%) + (-1%) = 0%.
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
Your 2 year rate is 1% above the tracker rate, so you'd probably need the ECB to raise rates by 2% over the next 2 years to break even. Remember that if you take this rate today, you will be paying 1% more immediately. You will need this rate to be 1% below (not equal) at some stage to recoup this money i.e. (+1%) + (-1%) = 0%.
That's pretty much my thinking too. There's no point in trying to predict the ECB in 2 years time and matching that now. You're losing money waiting for it to go up.
 

VOR

Frequent Poster
Messages
436
If I were you I would take the tracker rate for 2 reasons:
1) The standard variable is going to increase irrespective of ECB. It is well publicised that the banks want to increase margin.
2) If you take a fixed rate, PTSB will never offer you the tracker again. This is your only chance to take it.

The tracker is the best of a bad lot really but it would be my choice.
 

SISSOKO

Frequent Poster
Messages
117
Corklad,

Just wondering have you gone in and had a chat with them and tried to haggle.Those rates are cat , especially when they are offering 3.75% fixed to new customers.
I,ll be in the same boat next month so would be interesting to see what their
response would be ?
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
SISSOKO,

We got the mortgage through a broker and I've only been dealing with their mortgage customer service for queries so far. I'm wouldn't hold out much hope ringing them up and asking for a better deal. I might try though. If you don't ask you don't get...
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
Update: I rang a broker there and he said Permo don't tend to negotiate their rates, even with the brokers. So what we have we're probably stuck with.

His opinion was take the tracker as it'll avoid the bank hiking their rates on their own. He agreed it was the best of a bad bunch seeing as we can't switch. Am going to go with that.
 

seriams

Frequent Poster
Messages
189
Just finished our fixed term for year at 4.99% with permo.

They've offered us these options

Tracker Variable Rate (ECB + 3.25%) : 4.25%
LTV Variable Rate: 4.15%
2 Year Fixed: 5.25%
5 Year Fixed: 5.75%
7 Year Fixed: 6.1%
10 Year Fixed: 6.1%

On paper it would seem to me that the tracker would be the best option of the variable rates in the medium term anyway since it would avoid permo deciding to put their rates up outside the ECB. 7 and 10 years are too long and the rates are just too high.

With the fixed rates, I guess the call then would be will the ECB raise rates 1% over the next 2 years, 1.5% over 5 years? I guess even if they do we'd still be saving money as the rates rise to meet these figures.

Opinions?
Tracker seems very high. We went tracker in Nov last year with BOI, ECB + 1.25%
 

Shaggydog

Registered User
Messages
3
Hi Corklad

Did you ever get any further with the TSB with this unreasable tracker rate. I have been offered something simular and my financial advisor has informed me that the rate offered is contratory to my terms and conditions of my mortgage. He says the rate of margin on the tracker can be NO HIGHER DURING THE LIFE OF THE MORTAGE than the margin taken during the original offer, IE our 5 yr fixed was 4.99%. The ECB base rate when we took the mortgage was 3.25%. The margin on the mtg was 1.74%. The ECB rate is now 1.5%. TSB can only charge us 3.24%(thats the ECB rate of 1.5% plus the orginal margin of 1.74%) on our tracker on NOT the 4.75% they are offering in their loan letter. Our terms state this on the back. ENSURE YOU CHECK THIS AND GO BACK.... YOU HAVE A CASE TO CHALLANGE AS THE TERMS WERE BROKEN if is this is the case.. good luck
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
Hi Corklad

Did you ever get any further with the TSB with this unreasable tracker rate. I have been offered something simular and my financial advisor has informed me that the rate offered is contratory to my terms and conditions of my mortgage. He says the rate of margin on the tracker can be NO HIGHER DURING THE LIFE OF THE MORTAGE than the margin taken during the original offer, IE our 5 yr fixed was 4.99%. The ECB base rate when we took the mortgage was 3.25%. The margin on the mtg was 1.74%. The ECB rate is now 1.5%. TSB can only charge us 3.24%(thats the ECB rate of 1.5% plus the orginal margin of 1.74%) on our tracker on NOT the 4.75% they are offering in their loan letter. Our terms state this on the back. ENSURE YOU CHECK THIS AND GO BACK.... YOU HAVE A CASE TO CHALLANGE AS THE TERMS WERE BROKEN if is this is the case.. good luck
Cheers for all that info! That's very interesting and even if it doesn't make a difference for me it might change things for someone else.

I just had another look at my approval letter and pulled out the exact clause in it.





So they say it is the "tracker mortgage rate applicable to the balance outstanding on the loan". I'm not sure how much wiggle room there is there.

Is this similar to what you have? You said "Our terms state this on the back", what are they exactly? And please let me know the result you achieve. I, and others, would be highly interested as it would make a massive difference to repayments.
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
I'm wondering too are you referring to the back of the approval letter where they have some information. The title of the page is "Housing Loans Under Consumer Credit Act 1995" and they have tracker mortgage info in a box (does this come under that act?)





Item 1 there says the ECB rate "will not be exceeded during the term of the loan". I don't know if you could argue that even though I was offered an initial tracker and took a fixed instead that that tracker offer would be counted in this clause.

Anyone out there have some idea or opinions? They would be massively appreciated.
 

jas376

Frequent Poster
Messages
28
those rates are fairly high.. im coming off a two year fixed next month with ptsb. those rates depress me!
The rates seem to me to be more favourable than what I would have expected.

I'm also coming off a ptsb fixed rate (4.85%) soon and I was led to believe that I would be offered rates of around 6%.

I was all set to move to another lender but now maybe I won't have to if they offer me these rates of between 4% and 5%, which I can just about afford.

Have ptsb reduced its rates recently or was I misinformed?

You've cheered me up a little, Corklad. Thanks for that!
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
You've cheered me up a little, Corklad. Thanks for that!
I'm not sure you should be that cheerful. The variable rates have gone up a fair bit since then. The current tracker we took is now at 4.75% also. You might post the options you have when you get them.
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
He says the rate of margin on the tracker can be NO HIGHER DURING THE LIFE OF THE MORTAGE than the margin taken during the original offer, IE our 5 yr fixed was 4.99%. The ECB base rate when we took the mortgage was 3.25%. The margin on the mtg was 1.74%. The ECB rate is now 1.5%. TSB can only charge us 3.24%(thats the ECB rate of 1.5% plus the orginal margin of 1.74%) on our tracker on NOT the 4.75% they are offering in their loan letter.
Shaggydog, I was having another read over this and I think I understand better what you are suggesting there.

I think you are clutching at straws though. That 1.74% margin that the fixed rate was over the ECB doesn't seem relevant to me. That's never a tracker margin - that's just the rate they offered on the fixed period. Nowhere in the T&Cs does it say that that is margin that cannot be exceeded.

Of course, I'd be very interested in seeing the outcome you come up with out of this (and please let us know) but I can't see you getting anywhere.
 

Shaggydog

Registered User
Messages
3
Hi Corklad

We have gone to our solicitor with this. We are waiting to see how they calculated the inital fixed rate of 4.99%. They dont just pluck figures out of the sky when working these out. They work everything off the ECB rate plus a margin. The ECB BASE RATE AT THE TIME WAS 3.25%.. The MARGIN they are now looking for on the tracker is 3.25%. Our advise is that we took a tracker mtg in Nov 2006 with the option of fixing for 5yrs at 4.99%. The CCA states that the MARGIN RATE cannot be exceeded during the term of the loan. The MTG is a TRACKER as far as we are concerned, we just opted to fix the first 5 yrs. If this is the case the BIGGEST MARGIN the Bank can take is the margin they offered at the time which in our case was 4.99 less 3.25 = 1.74%.. The Tracker rate at the time was .5% above ECB so according to our advise they cannot increase that and at worst it cant be beond the initial MARGIN between our fixed and the ECB of 1.74%.. Its not a new mortgage offer as its still the same mortgage. All inital loan offer info should still apply. The Detail is to see how they intially worked out the rate.. A current MTG advisor has told me that in their company this is the case...
 

webbs

Frequent Poster
Messages
79
Hi Shaggydog

Would you keep us updated here on how you are getting on, as we are in a similar position with a margin of more than 3% on our tracker mortgage that we took out fixed for 3yrs back in 2007
 

corklad

Frequent Poster
Messages
66
We are waiting to see how they calculated the inital fixed rate of 4.99%. They dont just pluck figures out of the sky when working these out.
That will be the key to your case

The CCA states that the MARGIN RATE cannot be exceeded during the term of the loan.
I've been looking through the CCA (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/act/pub/0024/print.html) and I don't see anything about tracker mortgages or margin rate calculations. Have you more information on this?


Also, I my case I didn't actually get an official offer of different options at the start of the morning. The broker sent on a list of rates and LTVs from PTSB and I just told that broker which one I wanted - the 4.99% 3 year fixed in my case. Incidentally that list I got didn't include a tracker rate.

Another question for you, did you go straight on to that fixed at the start of the loan? Not a tracker first and then moved to fix?
 

Fiskar

Frequent Poster
Messages
143
ShaggyDog

In same boat as you, coming off fixed next Feb. Have a meeting with the PTSB in Dec where I intend to raise this margin issue.
Below are the rates applicable in March 2007. If I could attach the html file I have on my USB it would be clearer to read but the rates are clear below.

Please let us know how you fare with the margins with your solicitor.

New Business


The interest rate on an existing permanent tsb loan may vary from the rates quoted on this page HOME LOANS - Cost per EUR 1000

Fixed Interest Rates Gross Rate APR over 20 yrs over 25 yrs over 30 yrs
1 Year Fixed (<500K) 4.69% 4.7% 6.42 5.66 5.18
1 Year Fixed (1M+) 4.69% 4.6% 6.42 5.66 5.18
1 Year Fixed (500K-1M)4.69% 4.6% 6.42 5.66 5.18
2 Year Fixed (500K-1M)4.99% 4.7% 6.595.845.36
2 Year Fixed (<500K)4.99% 4.7% 6.595.845.36
2 Year Fixed (1M+)4.99% 4.7% 6.595.845.36
3 Year Fixed (<500K)4.99% 4.8% 6.595.845.36
3 Year Fixed (500K-1M)4.99% 4.8% 6.595.845.36
3 Year Fixed (1M+)4.99% 4.8% 6.595.845.36
5 Year Fixed 5.15% 5.2% 6.685.935.46
10 Year Fixed 5.15% 5.3% 6.685.935.46

Variable Interest Rates Gross Rate APR over 20 yrs over 25 yrs over 30 yrs
Standard Variable Rate 5.10% 5.2% 6.655.905.42
Tracker (LTV<=80%/1M+) 4.30% 4.6% 6.215.444.94
Tracker (LTV<=80%/500K-1M) 4.30% 4.6% 6.215.444.94
Tracker (LTV<=80%/<500K) 4.35% 4.6% 6.245.474.97
Tracker (LTV>80-95%/1M+) 4.30% 4.6% 6.215.444.94
Tracker (LTV>80-95%/500K-1M)4.45% 4.7% 6.295.525.03
Tracker (LTV>80-95%/<500K) 4.45% 4.9% 6.295.525.03
Tracker (LTV>95%/1M+) 4.50% 4.6% 6.325.555.06
Tracker (LTV>95%/500K-1M) 4.65% 4.8% 6.405.645.15
Tracker (LTV>95%/<500K) 4.85% 5.0% 6.515.755.27
OnePlan Equity Release Rate 5.10% 5.2% 6.655.905.42

RESIDENTIAL INVESTMENT PROPERTY - Cost per EUR 1000
Fixed Interest Rates Gross Rate APR over 15 yrs over 20 yrs
1 Year Fixed (<500K) RIP 4.69% 4.7% 7.746.42
1 Year Fixed (500K+) RIP 4.69% 4.6% 7.746.42
3 Year Fixed New Business 4.99% 5.0 % 7.906.59
5 Year Fixed 5.15% 5.2% 7.986.68

Variable Interest Rates Gross Rate APR over 15 yrs over 20 yrs
Tracker (LTV<=80%/500K+) RIP 4.50% 4.6% 7.646.32
Tracker (LTV<=80%/<500K) RIP 4.55% 4.6% 7.676.35
Tracker (LTV>80%/500K+) RIP 4.65% 4.8% 7.726.40
Tracker (LTV>80%/<500K) RIP 4.85% 5.0% 7.836.51
Variable Rate 5.10% 5.2% 7.966.65



Mortgage options are provided by permanent tsb. Life options are underwritten by Irish Life Assurance plc. Insurance options are underwritten by Allianz Ireland plc. permanent tsb is a trading name of Irish Life & Permanent plc which is regulated by the Financial Regulator and is a tied insurance agent for Irish Life Assurance plc.

Irish Life & Permanent plc is a limited liability company registered in Dublin under No. 222332. The company's registered office is: Irish Life Centre, Lower Abbey Street, Dublin 1.

 
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