permanent tsb expects the deal with Ulster to close in Q4 2022

Any prospect that PTSB might treat the UB mortgages as new business re selecting an interest rate? I would consider fixing my UB mortgage on the PTSB 2.25% 4 year rate. If I'm treated as an existing customer then I'll endeavour to switch lender.
 
Hi Michael

Unlikely but when the Competition Commission asks for submissions, you should say that.

The market might be quite different by the time this goes through.

Brendan
 
This is the notice which appeared on Ulster Bank Anytime when I logged in this morning. It initially had an opening statement that it applied to business customers only, but that has since been removed.

Ulster Bank Ireland DAC presence in the Republic of Ireland​

An update from Ulster Bank​


Latest Update 17/12/2021

Today, Ulster Bank announces an update on its phased withdrawal process, as confirmed on 19 February 2021, binding agreement with AIB on 28 June 2021 and non-binding memorandum of understanding with Permanent TSB Group (“Permanent TSB”) on 23 July 2021.

Ulster Bank and its parent NatWest Group have agreed a binding agreement with Permanent TSB for the sale of performing non-tracker mortgages; the performing loans in our micro-SME business, Ulster Bank’s Lombard Asset Finance business, including the Lombard digital platform; and a subset of Ulster Bank branch locations.

The proposed sale will include a total of approximately €7.6bn gross performing loans as at 30 June 2021, the majority relating to non-tracker mortgages, and 25 of Ulster Bank’s 88 branch locations. The transaction is subject to further due diligence, obtaining regulatory approvals and satisfying other conditions. The proposed sale may not complete on the terms contemplated in the binding agreement, when envisaged by the binding agreement, or at all.

While performing tracker mortgages are not part of today’s binding agreement, Ulster Bank and NatWest Group are working on a pathway for these customers and a process is underway in this regard. We will update on this in due course.
There are customers and customer products which are not covered by today’s announcement and we will update on those as appropriate. While there is no change for customers today, in early 2022 we will begin to serve formal account closure notice to customers who have current and deposit accounts. This means that customers will need to Choose a new bank and prepare to Move and Close their accounts. We will ensure customers, including those in vulnerable situations, have ample notice periods as well as the support they need to complete the process.

We understand that choosing and moving to a new bank is a process that customers may wish to commence now, and we are already talking to customers who are considering their options. While we are not asking customers to move bank right now, we are ready to help those who have chosen their new bank. Our branch and telephony teams are ready to support customers with the move / and or close process and can be contacted here.
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Link here:

Important Customer Notice

www.ulsterbank.ie www.ulsterbank.ie
 

Interesting extract from the Ulster Bank Q&A. This is under the "All Other Products" section, not the Mortgage section. What could it possibly mean?​

​

Withdrawal of Ulster Bank Ireland DAC from the Republic of Ireland is not covered in the T&Cs of my product, so how are you able to make this change?​

The withdrawal of the Bank is not covered in Terms and Conditions of our products. We are however entitled to transfer the product to another provider. Please be assured that this announcement does not affect your legal and regulatory protections.
 
What on earth could it mean other than what it says?

They are entitled to sell their mortgages and other products to another provider.

Brendan
 
I think that completing the migration of the UB customers over to PTSB by the end of 2022 is aspirational, to say the least.

Firstly, they've to go through a regulatory process, involving the competition authority - and as we've a already seen in the case of BoI's deal with KBC, the competition authority is not just rubber stamping these deals.

Then there's the formal communications that will need to go to all impacted customers, some of which involves minimum notice periods, as I recall.

Then there's the fact that all of the Banks are heavily impacted by Covid, so getting people to physically manage the logistics, could take a very long time.

Then there's talk that PTSB are planning on outsourcing the management of the home loans to Pepper - so, that's another party involved in the transaction, another contract to negotiate, possibly further system challenges etc.

I'm sure NatWest Plc would love to tell their shareholders by the end of their next financial year (i.e. 31/12/22) that the deal has completed, but they won't really be able to control the timeliness here.

I wonder what conditions are attaching to the shares that NatWest are taking in PTSB - must they hold the 16.7% equity for a minimum period, or can they sell the lot without restriction, anytime they want?

I also wonder are these new shares that are being created in the PTSB, or is the Government effectively surrendering 16.7% of the shares its holding in PTSB, on behalf on the taxpayer, as part of this deal?
 
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Stitcher said:
Where will the tracker mortgages go?
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That's yet to be determined. The Tracker loan book is not part of the current deal with PTSB. While a story was doing the rounds that AIB were looking at it, there have also been unconfirmed reports that some of the funds have been expressing an interest (they might acquire it and have it managed by Pepper, in a similar manner to what happened to the old Danske Tracker loan portfolio, for example).
 
MrEarl said:
I also wonder are these new shates that are being created in the PTSB, or is the Government effectively surrendering 16.7% of the shares its holding in PTSB, on behalf on the taxpayer, as part of this deal?
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They would be new shares. NatWest could purchase existing shares on the open market if they wanted. The point of PTSB issuing new shares is to raise capital.

Sounds a bit like a hollow withdrawal. In order to get out of a country I don't want to be in I'll close one bank but buy part of another.
 
Joe Brennan has a good article on it in the Irish Times.

www.irishtimes.com

Joe Brennan: NatWest and Irish taxpayers will be joined at the hip in PTSB

Irish lender needs €400m of fresh capital to support its purchase of Ulster Bank loans
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com

However, John Cronin, an analyst with Goodbody Stockbrokers, said that NatWest will be sure to file the PTSB shares in its “non-core” basket and seek to sell them over time. He’s far from alone in that view.

The UK bank plans to enter a shareholder co-operation agreement with Minister for Finance Paschal Donohoe to ensure orderly PTSB stock sales by both sides in the future as they seek to ultimately lower their holdings.

And with good reason. The market overhang of 79 per cent of PTSB’s shares in the hands of two unnatural holders is bad enough without either having to worry about the other bailing out unceremoniously.

Brendan
 
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MrEarl said:
Then there's talk that PTSB are planning on outsourcing the management of the home loans to Pepper
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That would seem a strange outcome as ptsb has all the resources in place to manage the loans and sell other products to their new customers.

Maybe the idea is that the CCPC would make it a condition of the takeover so that the Ulster Bank customers don't get hit with ptsb's very high mortgage rates?

Brendan
 
skrooge said:
They would be new shares. NatWest could purchase existing shares on the open market if they wanted. The point of PTSB issuing new shares is to raise capital.

Sounds a bit like a hollow withdrawal. In order to get out of a country I don't want to be in I'll close one bank but buy part of another.
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And the government's shareholding gets diluted by natwest new shares, that's great. It effectively means that the state is exiting permanent tsb although not the way they would like.
As regards the competition authority surely it is much better to have a beefed up permanent tsb to replace Ulster, it would be completely stupid and meaningless if they try to block this deal
 
Brendan Burgess said:
What on earth could it mean other than what it says?

They are entitled to sell their mortgages and other products to another provider.

Brendan
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Dig deeper. Yes of course they can transfer their products to another provider. I don't think anyone's disputing that. My point is that, while they're transferring the mortgages, the answer is NOT in the mortgage section of the Q&A. It's in the "All Other Products" section, and the other products are not (apparently) being transferred. Given the very deliberate and studied, anodyne nature of their communication, which screams of cautious lawyerly input, there's almost certainly more to this than meets the eye.

What happens, for instance, to customers with term loans, credit cards or sizeable overdrafts?
 
BB

A badly drafted FAQ is most likely to explain this. No need for a conspiracy.

The main thing is that lenders are entitled to sell their mortgages to anyone they like.

Brendan
 
Brendan,

This was an exceptionally carefully drafted FAQ. Great care was taken to avoid giving hostages to fortune. This was mostly achieved by taking great care to avoid giving any information at all.

I might be wrong, but I believe there is some significance to the wording used in the "All Other Products" section. It didn't end up there by accident.
 
Baby boomer said:
while they're transferring the mortgages, the answer is NOT in the mortgage section of the Q&A.
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It wouldn't apply to mortgages as the mortgage contract probably does specify that Ulster Bank can sell the mortgage as mortgages are often sold as part of a securitisation.

Hint: Always look for a simple explanation before inventing a conspiracy.

Brendan
 
Agree entirely with your hint! Conspiracies tend to be vastly outnumbered by carelessness, incompetence and general messing around. Occam's razor and all that.

In this case, though, I just think there's some significance to Ulster Bank telling customers whose products aren't being transferred right now that the bank does actually have the right to transfer those products. Why would they go to the trouble of saying it otherwise?
 
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