GNP is lower, so that would make the shadow economy bigger as a fraction.
Agree with the rest though.
people not declaring rental homes
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GNP is lower, so that would make the shadow economy bigger as a fraction.
Agree with the rest though.
mandelbrot
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D'oh!! Yes, of course, probably moves us from slightly better to pretty much bang on the OECD average. My point was about context, a sense of proportion, and acknowledging that just as death and taxes are certainties, so too is tax evasion.
mandelbrot
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Interestingly enough, that article you quoted finishes with a totally self-defeating paragraph:
"While we’re at it, perhaps we could insist on Mr Noonan making some effort to ascertain levels of tax avoidance and evasion. After all, if you don’t know the extent of a problem, then how can you credibly claim to be tackling it? It’s an area that’s worth some attention. In the ten-year period to 2009, there were 3,183 prosecutions for welfare fraud which resulted in fines of €43m — a sum which was rather dwarfed by the €2.25bn secured by Revenue investigations into tax evasion during the same period"
I'm taking from that, that you don't consider the actions taken by Revenue to identify and recover that 2.25bn as suitable "steps"?
To be honest no I'm sick of it, I am however sick of a lot of things going on here at the moment....I genuinely am sick and tired of the completely laxed approach to breaking the law here in this country. The three convicted men, who each have between eight and 69 previous convictions, including convictions for violent disorder, who had never been sent to prison before......the guy who was on the TV3 documentary on dole fraud boasting about his second property and numerous holidays......the government computer systems that "don't talk to each other" I mean for flip sake.....what is going on here?? I'm so annoyed when I think of paying tax at the higher rate over thirty something grand....it's a complete joke. This country is not helping the middle income earner and at the moment I am lucky to make it to the end of the month. When I see this "oh well that's just the way the cookie crumbles" attitude I think what???? there HAS to be a way, I'm an ordinary citizen...I don't know about GNP GDP etc but I do know that if everyone paid their fair share I would feel a lot happier and far more content.
mandelbrot
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So basically, you're upset because the world isn't perfect.
Seriously, are you a grown up, or a secondary school student?!
mandelbrot
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Sorry to harp on a point, but this is what I take issue with, and the point that you seem unable to come to terms with - I've pointed out to you that in respect of the things you're complaining about here, we're no worse than other developed countries.
I'm not saying we shouldn't aspire to keep improving, but to be endlesly whingeing the way you are on this thread, without being willing to do anything yourself (i.e. use the confidential reporting mechanism provided) or add anything constructive other than "the computers need to talk to each other (coz I'm sure no-one has thought of that either!
) serves no purpose.If everyone paid their fair share you'd be paying a lot more. The higher income earners pay a hugely disproportionate share of income tax. A couple of years ago I noticed I was earning about five or six times the average wage, but paying about fifteen times as much as an average wage earner in tax. Like you, I decided I'd be far happier if everyone paid their share. It was one reason (admittedly not the most important) that I quit my job. Now Ireland Inc gets to find fifteen middle income earners to replace my tax -- you're welcome.
mandelbrot
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Huh? So your idea of "fair share" is that everyone would pay the same rate of tax? I'd have thought most people would think a progressive system is more "fair" as those who can afford to pay a greater proportion of their income do so.
A single PAYE worker earning 30k will pay about 4,150 between tax & USC.
A single PAYE worker earning 150k will pay about 61k between tax & USC.
Within the PAYE system you pay the same marginal rate on income from 32k upwards, so at 150k you aren't being gouged on your incremental income, any more than the pleb earning slightly more than avg industrial wage.
How far would you extend the logic you've applied above? If Ireland was the third world and the average wage was a subsistence wage and therefore not taxed to any extent, and you were in the fortunate position of earning substantially more than a subsistence wage and therefore taxed infinitely more, would you like to swap places with a subsistence worker so you could bask in an impoverished sense of tax free wellbeing?!
I didn't say that.
Sure, but there are degrees of progressiveness, and one must be chosen. How progressive is too progressive? At the moment, someone on 200k+ will not only pay about fifteen times the amount of tax of someone on the threshold of the higher rate tax band, but they will pay more than three times the percentage. For me, paying 52% on the large majority of my income was a disincentive to working a very demanding job.
Fortunately that wasn't the choice facing me. The choice was to do a far less demanding (or more rewarding) job for less money or, indeed, just not work and do whatever I liked. Since my job was funded by FDI and I wasn't replaced, my tax contribution was totally lost to the State. I'm less greedy than the State, so I'm happy to go and do something else. In fact, leaving the rat race altogether has been far more rewarding than working six months of the year "for the man".
Am I a grown up? So having a problem with systems that aren't working is being childish? Are you for real?? Like seriously what are you advocating here? Like you think everything's working fine and up to scratch? I hope to god you're not in a position of power within any of these organisations. Let's leave it so it's all working fine, no need for reform.
Sorry to harp on a point, but this is what I take issue with, and the point that you seem unable to come to terms with - I've pointed out to you that in respect of the things you're complaining about here, we're no worse than other developed countries.
I'm not saying we shouldn't aspire to keep improving, but to be endlesly whingeing the way you are on this thread, without being willing to do anything yourself (i.e. use the confidential reporting mechanism provided) or add anything constructive other than "the computers need to talk to each other (coz I'm sure no-one has thought of that either!
So remind me is this forum called "letting off steam"???? As I said it's not my job to come up with the answers. My profession and expertise are not in this area so what possible answers am I going to have. I expect the people that are paid to do these jobs to come up with the solutions.
Paying their fair share is paying the correct amount of tax you are obliged to pay. If you don't think it's fair that you pay more tax that's something different. I expect people to pay the correct amount of tax no more no less. Honesty is really all I'm suggesting and when people are dishonest, which inevitably they will be, an adequate system to catch the dishonest. Doesn't seem that unreasonable to me. I'm amazed you're so happy with the status quo you see no room for improvement. Ah sure it's grand.
I'm upset because the systems are inadequate. Your patronising and condescending replies don't offer anything constructive in my humble opinion.
mandelbrot
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I am calling you childish because your comments here show no recognition of relativity - Ireland's systems aren't substantially better or worse than other developed countries. Hence I told you the world is not perfect, people aren't perfect, and you appear to have childishly unreasonable expectations.
At this stage you're just coming back every couple of days to vent your spleen again.
I'm not saying I think everything is perfect or that there's no room for improvement, but I'm a realist.
Can you at least acknowledge that you understand that it is not practical to have a "system" that can catch all tax evasion or welfare fraud? Any more than it's possible to catch every speeder or shoplifter, and since you have to employ people to try to tackle these issues, at a certain point the cost becomes greater than the additional benefit to society - do you understand this is the case, in the real world?
Do you agree or disagree that, fundamentally, the problem isn't "systems" but dishonest people?
mandelbrot
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Your giving out and complaining - from a position of apparent ignorance in a way that indicates little appreciation of the real world, the cost of implementing "systems", and the requirement to balance people's civil rights with the state's need to gather and utilise information - offers nothing constructive, and that is a fact.
mandelbrot
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Well you seem to be the one who wants to let off steam here..!
You've been told repeatedly that such are the information sources available nowadays that it is a question of when, not if, your friend is caught. But that doesn't seem good enough for you, why is that?
serotoninsid
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What mandelbrot said.
There's a place for this => 1850 715 815
There's a place for this => 1850 715 815
You are being incredibly inconsistent here. Be sure to let me know when you come up with the foolproof system that is going to catch every tax defaulter without you having to lift a finger to report the cases of fraud you know about. Revenue's confidential line *is* part of the current system -- the one you're not prepared to use. In the meantime, I'm not standing for the status quo -- I stand ready to report anyone who tries to rip us all off, and I promote tax compliance in my own circle by telling people about the virtues of contributing their rightful share... and that I'll report them if they don't.
Are you completely blind to the Irish societal context in all of this? Not too many years ago it was commonplace to drink and drive here. Today I know very few people who would do it -- not because of stricter enforcement, although that played a role in changing attitudes -- but because nobody thinks it's "cool" anymore or would tolerate their neighbours doing it. We are seeing a sea-change in attitudes to other things at the moment: the nod and wink attitude to penalty points and other misdemeanours that can be "disappeared" by knowing the right person in authority. Tax compliance is one of the things we need more of a focus on ... starting with people like you feeling vindicated instead of guilty when you report your cheating scumbag "friend" to Revenue. I presume you would agree that it is only misplaced guilt that stops you doing it, as opposed to any noble motive.