paying cash for kitchen can we avoid VAT?

cara mc k

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We have got a quote for a new kitchen and wardrobes, from a small company, they have given us a breakdown, the VAT on the kitchen is €1000 and the wardrobes €800, would it be very cheeky to offer the kitchen place cash to drop the VAT.

The reason I ask is a fireplace shop offered us VAT free if we paid cash, without us even asking. I know we all have to pay VAT and it's the law but I pay so much out of my wage packet and our budget is tight.

What do you think?

Cara mc K
 
cara mc k said:
I know we all have to pay VAT and it's the law but I pay so much out of my wage packet and our budget is tight.

What do you think?

Paying cash to avoid VAT is facilitating tax evasion. If less of this went on then we might all pay less taxes overall. It's up to you what to do but not too many people will condone tax evasion.
 
If I was in that situation - I'd "Possibly" PAY THE CASH and save a grand.

I'm not going to get into the whole moral thing here and seen for pages on other posts.

Do you think that the Kitchen Place is declaring all the tax he charges ?
Dream on. Why line his pocket further.

The government are making a fortune through taxes out of the current housing boom.

Pay it and repent your sins on sunday in confession :)
 
You have some neck in trying to encourage someone else to evade tax for your personal benefit. It is now a criminal offence (since the introduction 2005 Finance Act) to "aid or abet" tax evasion. Hopefully the business will now have the courage to report you to the Revenue for doing so!
 
Many thanks for your replies (including Ubiquitous, who would like to see me in Mountjoy), I know it is wrong, but since had to pay stamp duty, feel taxed at every turn. I have now decided to write a prize winning novel, or breed horses (though difficult in an apartment complex) and use my tax free earnings to pay for the kitchen!

Cara Mc K
 
cara mc k said:
Many thanks for your replies (including Ubiquitous, who would like to see me in Mountjoy)

Ubiquituous never actually said that.

I know it is wrong, but since had to pay stamp duty, feel taxed at every turn.

"I know it is wrong, but ..." sounds like a platitude. Arguing that the liability for one tax should free one from liability for a totally unrelated tax doesn't make any sense. As I said before people who think that we pay too much tax now are not exactly facilitating lower taxation by engaging in tax evasion. If you don't like the current tax regime then by all means campaign to have it changed. In the meantime the prudent course of action would be to operate within it.
 
Reality check

Anyone building in rural areas (my scope of knowledge) will be well familiar with that one.

A few points
1) Its not an offence to pay with cash
2) You are not responsible for policing the tax affairs of your supplier/builder.
3) In return for cash he agreed to give you a discount, nothing unusual or illegal in that. The amount you paid in cash was of course inclusive of VAT and the sole obligation to account for that VAT, and indeed the underlying income, rests with the supplier/tradesman. You are not obliged to, and should resist all attempts to be forced to, become a tax inspector.

As to whose pocket the money will be best used, thats a totally separate debate, however my truppence would be:

In this great country you get bad value for the tax you pay, you have to pay for everything yourself a second time: e.g. health care, eduacation
There are plenty of instances of multiple taxation, e.g. excise of fuel, motor tax, toll charges, and of course scandalous VRT. Selective EU policy adoption is rather galling.

The instance of wastage of taxpayers funds is very lamentable - countless consultants reports where to come in to ask you what you think and then tell you back what you told them, health service black hole, toll bridge giveaways, ridiculous liability cap for religious orders for abuse cases, nursing home pay off (they should have got the legislation right straightaway or at least nipped it in the bud years ago), massive infrastructure overruns - the Luas had 3 reports before anything could be done.... meanwhile the cost of everything was skyrocketing, electronic voting, and this very morning I hear theres to be initially hundreds of thousands spent on reporting on a postcode system and no doubt millions to implement it including unions pay outs for f* all just so we can have a more efficient junk mail service ... and of course you'll have to pay for getting rid of the junk mail.

To sum up, they waste it at every hands turn, we shouldnt accept it, the money is more wisely spent in the taxpayers pocket, they'd be better off peeing it against a wall that gladly forking it over to government to be burned on the pire of incompentence.
 
Re: Reality check

Betsy Og said:
A few points
1) Its not an offence to pay with cash
2) You are not responsible for policing the tax affairs of your supplier/builder.
3) In return for cash he agreed to give you a discount, nothing unusual or illegal in that. The amount you paid in cash was of course inclusive of VAT and the sole obligation to account for that VAT, and indeed the underlying income, rests with the supplier/tradesman. You are not obliged to, and should resist all attempts to be forced to, become a tax inspector.
The queries raised in this thread did not involve normal business transactions where a consumer buys goods or services from a supplier, where the latter retains responsibility for all aspects of VAT & tax compliance. Instead it concerned a situation where a consumer proposed to deliberately induce or encourage the supplier to evade tax so that the consumer could pocket the difference. That in my mind is "aiding and abetting" tax evasion, now a criminal offence.

Betsy Og said:
they'd be better off peeing it against a wall that gladly forking it over to government to be burned on the pire of incompentence.

Problem is that given recent experience with evasion via offshore, bogus and illicit insurance accounts, many end up peeing it against a wall AND (less than) gladly forking it over to government to be burned on the pire of incompentence!
 
Re: Reality check

Betsy Og said:
In this great country you get bad value for the tax you pay, you have to pay for everything yourself a second time: e.g. health care, eduacation
There are plenty of instances of multiple taxation, e.g. excise of fuel, motor tax, toll charges, and of course scandalous VRT. Selective EU policy adoption is rather galling.

The instance of wastage of taxpayers funds is very lamentable - countless consultants reports where to come in to ask you what you think and then tell you back what you told them, health service black hole, toll bridge giveaways, ridiculous liability cap for religious orders for abuse cases, nursing home pay off (they should have got the legislation right straightaway or at least nipped it in the bud years ago), massive infrastructure overruns - the Luas had 3 reports before anything could be done.... meanwhile the cost of everything was skyrocketing, electronic voting, and this very morning I hear theres to be initially hundreds of thousands spent on reporting on a postcode system and no doubt millions to implement it including unions pay outs for f* all just so we can have a more efficient junk mail service ... and of course you'll have to pay for getting rid of the junk mail.

If you have some suggestions about how things might be done better then why not campaign for change rather than insinuating that people should ignore the rules and thereby exacerbate the situation?
 
Re: Reality check

ClubMan said:
If you have some suggestions about how things might be done better then why not campaign for change rather than insinuating that people should ignore the rules and thereby exacerbate the situation?

Well in the first instance it is hardly unreasonable to expect the government to exercise a decent level of stewardship over the money we give them. In the UK they have a 'value for money/treasurer' Minister whose role is to try to curb the natural tendancy to be loose with the public's money. In Ireland we have the public accounts committee which bayonets the wounded after the battle - some good but not really good enough. You dont campign a fireman to put out fires, why should we have to campaign politicians and the civil service not to make fools of us??

If they showed they could handle it properly we mighnt feel so bad handing it over. For example, the Swedes seem to be very content, they tell you their taxes are high but they have a great health service, no homeless people on the streets. I find it shameful that year on year we get the same shots of primary schools in Dickensian conditions, what in Gods name are we doing with the huge budgetary surpluses??, that problem could and should have been wiped out after year 1 of the Celtic Tiger, here we are in the good days, after having the great days, and we dont seem to be any nearer the solution - what's it going to be like the next time we hit the rocks????

Re people peeing it against the wall AND then forking it over, in the set of circumstances outlined by the original poster, the tax liability may eventually fall upon the supplier/tradesman IF they dont deal with it properly, but not the punter. As I said, the punter pays them, what they do after that is their own business, the punter did not falsify any documents etc. etc., there is nothing to link the punter to any wrongdoing, they were asked to pay a sum, they paid it in cash, end of story.
 
I don't understand - that does not answer the question from me that you quoted above. As a constructive suggestion why not put all of your complaints, observations and suggestions in a letter to your local elected representatives and maybe the Department/Minister of Finance?
 
Writing to TD etc.

Yes, I suppose I could well do that. Its anyones guess what, if any, good it would do.

My point was that people shouldnt have to be told/cajoled/begged to do their job properly. Isnt it obvious that politicians and the civil service should give up their wasteful ways, just as its obvious that a fireman should put out fires.

Though I question their competence, I dont doubt that politicians/civil service realise they are wasting our money - they just dont care, and in the case of the civil service they are practically untouchable. They aint exactly results oriented or customer focussed - surely you'll grant me that much.
 
Paying cash to avoid VAT is facilitating tax evasion.

The kitchen company can still pay the VAT for a cash sale. What happens in many cases is that the company takes the VAT out of their margin.

If less of this went on then we might all pay less taxes overall.

Might pay less taxes? Maybe the government would find new bottomless pits for the money. In the case of a pay rise, people just find new things to spend the extra money on. Lifestyle improves to accommodate the extra income.

not too many people will condone tax evasion.

How do you know this? Doesn't seem to ring true with all the recent revenue investigations. Maybe not too many people will publically condone tax evasion.


Betsy - Well I agree with everything you've said anyway! The voice of reason speaks.
 
The 'not my responsibility whether the trader pays his tax arguement' is of course pure & simple denial worthy of the see-no-evil monkey. It's like giving a loaded gun to a child but not accepting responsibility for the resulting accident.

The 'we pay enough taxes' arguement is equally bogus. It's the law. If you don't like the law, then get it changed. You can vote, or campaign, or lobby, or march on the Dail. But you're not entitled to rip off the Exchequer - because of course, you are actually ripping off your law abiding neighbours, your family, your friends.

The 'bloated public service' arguement is again equally bogus. If you don't like the public service, vote for Mad Mullah McDowell & the PD's - if enough people do so, he'll have the civil service small enough to fit into your spare bedroom. Unless & until this unlikely event takes place, this is a real measure of the democratic wish of the majority of citizens to support the existing parties and their existing regimes.

This kind of wholesale encouraging of tax evasion makes me sick - particularly when masked behind flimsy excuses around taxation or the civil service. If you want to change the system, stand up for yourself & take what ever action it takes to get it changed. If you don't, have the decency to admit that you are encouraging tax evasion to grab few more shekels into your greedy paws and you inherit the same ethical slime pool as Haughey/Burke/Flynn and their like.
 
Rainyday - some of your arguments are so simplistic as to be totally naieve. "If you dont like the system then change it" - just like that.

I'd have no trouble voting PD, didnt have a candidate in my constituency.

You're delighted with the civil service and the value for money you are getting - you should start a club along those lines, you could hold the AGM in a phonebox.

To reiterate my main point - there is nothing to stop the trader in the example doing the right thing from a tax point of view - the customer got a cash discount - thats as far as it goes for the customer.

Do you lie awake at night wondering if everyone you deal with administers their tax affairs properly???, if so then seek medical assistance urgently.
 
cara mc k said:
The reason I ask is a fireplace shop offered us VAT free if we paid cash, without us even asking. I know we all have to pay VAT and it's the law but I pay so much out of my wage packet and our budget is tight.

What do you think?

Cara mc K

It's the airy tone of this post that really annoys me. Here is an exactly equivalent post for you to answer:

I can't afford a new plasma screen teevee, my neighbour down the road has one and I was thinking of smashing their windows in while they are on holiday to take theirs. They have insurance so it's no big deal and I deserve a nice telly.

What do you think?


-----------

PS. I pay a boatload of taxes too, a large chunk of it to cover scammers of various sorts including the type you are proposing to become. My kitchen is sh*t, who should I blame for that?

"our budget is tight"

Not that tight if you have 8 and a half grand to play with. Buy a cheaper kitchen and wardrobe.
 
Betsy Og said:
Rainyday - some of your arguments are so simplistic as to be totally naieve. "If you dont like the system then change it" - just like that.

I'd have no trouble voting PD, didnt have a candidate in my constituency.
This is no co-incidence. The reason why the PD's didn't have a candidate is because they didn't think they'd have a chance of getting elected given their extreme right wing views. This is a clear indication that the majority of voters don't support their (and possibly your) position. Of course, if you have any real concern over this, you could always join your local branch of the PD's and invigorate them - get yourself onto the local council and you'll be ready to stand yourself for the Dail in the 2012 General Election. Or perhaps you're not really that bothered, are you?
Betsy Og said:
To reiterate my main point - there is nothing to stop the trader in the example doing the right thing from a tax point of view - the customer got a cash discount - thats as far as it goes for the customer.
This is a cop-out and you know it. You might manage to fool yourself, but you don't fool the rest of us. This is facilitating tax evasion - plain & simple. Have the decency to stand up and be proud of the fact that you are encouraging buyers to rip-off their fellow citizens instead of weaseling out on a technicality.
 
As a constructive suggestion why not put all of your complaints, observations and suggestions in a letter to your local elected representatives and maybe the Department/Minister of Finance?

Yes, because the Minister and other TD's are completely unaware that they are wasting money, none of them watched Prime Time, or listened to anyone on the Doorstep, or ever read a newspaper. If someone would only just bring the whole situation to their attention the problem will be sorted out.

Gimme a Break. If anyone believes that ANY of the parties in Ireland will deliver good quality services and anything close to value for money then you're deluding yourself, and you'll still be deluding yourself and bleeting on about campaigning and using your vote on your death bed which will be a trolley or a piece of garden furniture unless you've paid for health insurance on top of your tax, prsi, AND Health Levy.

Tax evastion isn't the answer, of course it makes matters worse for all of us if a few help themselves through evasion. But our supposed leaders have been giving us a master class in helping themselves and damning the rest so I can't say I'm surprised to find people willing to frequent the Black/Grey Market. There's a reason why we call them leaders.

Please can we end the patronising advice to people to campaign, vote, write to your TD. It doesn't work, has never worked, will never work. This is Ireland, we get the government we deserve. We'd rather sit in a pub or shop in Brown Thomas than get out and Protest or cause a bit of civil disobedience. There are other countries in the world where a fraction of what goes on here would have led to a General Strike.
Here we re-elect them.

My opinion on the original Post. I would never suggest to someone that they could do me a better deal if I pay with Notes, wink wink. I'm VAT registered myself and I would hate to have someone suggest it to me. However if I am shopping around for something I will take the best price/service/quality mix I can get. Is it possible that some businesses I deal with have tax issues? I don't know, and I don't propose to waste my time finding out, I have enough things to comply with to keep my own business straight without worrying about others.

The only thing I can say is this, if you deal with a business and save money by
knowingly paying in a way that helps them evade tax you are on very shaky ground when it comes to consumer rights if something goes wrong. That's one of the prices you pay for not paying tax, you forfeit the protection of the state.

If you are willing to pay the penalty of getting caught, forfeiting rights, and living for possibly years with tax evasion on your conscience then do it. My conscience only stretches to bringing a couple of extra pairs of Levi's and some electrical goods through Customs at Dublin Airport.

Though others will disagree with me I happen to believe that the best form of protest to a law you disagree with is to break it, but you must be willing to pay the penalty that society attaches to that crime. E.g. I have more respect for Bin protesters who went to Jail than for protesters who paid up but wrote letters.

Most statues are to people who crossed the line of the law in order to move it. To my knowledge there are no statues to a committee.

BTW Rainyday stop stealing my Government small enough to fit in your bedroom joke.
You know it applies to US Republicans. ;) Bedrooms in new Irish houses are so small that it doesn't apply over here.

-Rd
 
daltonr said:
BTW Rainyday stop stealing my Government small enough to fit in your bedroom joke.
You know it applies to US Republicans. ;) Bedrooms in new Irish houses are so small that it doesn't apply over here.
It is a great line that I learnt from you, all right - but in all fairness, didn't you steal it from the writers of the West Wing?
 
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