paying 2006 tax - was not registered with PRTB!

[ubiquitous]

It's a business. It's not a hobby. If your tenants don't return a form to you get down to the house and get it off them. It's YOUR responsibility. YOU'RE the one who'll end up in court. Would you show the same frivilous attitude if they didn't pay the rent?

What do you propose the landlord should do, if a tenant refuses to provide their PPS or to sign the form? Kick them out? Send round the local 'RA? I know of at least one case where a (decent & long-term) tenant has flatly refused to give their landlord their PPS on the basis of "privacy". Seeing as we don't officially live (as yet) in a police state, I would have thought that the tenant's wishes/fears should be respected.

This is a terrible attitude. If I ran a company with this lack of common sense I'd be out of business within a year. "Arrah shure I sent the bill to my clients but dey never replied, what could I do?".

What if it was a case of "Arrah shure I asked the supplier to send me the bill but he never did, what could I do?"?.

 

[Stifster]

This is a terrible attitude. If I ran a company with this lack of comman sense I'd be out of business within a year. "Arrah shure I sent the bill to my clients but dey never replied, what could I do?".

It's a business. It's not a hobby. If your tenants don't return a form to you get down to the house and get it off them. It's YOUR responsibility. YOU'RE the one who'll end up in court. Would you show the same frivilous attitude if they didn't pay the rent?

Dum de dum.

I had to evict them for that and other reasons.

I have the Act here in front of me and can't find any provision for registering without the tenants details. So what was I supposed to do in the event that they had stayed longer? go to court? what would that get me? I still wouldn't have been registered. I don't think you really get the point.

and there are two o's in common.

and This post will be deleted if not edited immediately if I don't talk with a silly bogger accent either.

 

[Howitzer]

What do you propose the landlord should do, if a tenant refuses to provide their PPS or to sign the form? Kick them out?

Yes. Protect yourself and your assets. You don't call round with the lease and looking for your deposit 2 months after the tenant has moved in, you do it before you give them the keys.

What if it was a case of "Arrah shure I asked the supplier to send me the bill but he never did, what could I do?"?.

?

It's pretty clear of what the legalities of non-compliance with the PRTB are. Having an "Array shure ..." attitude with regard to any aspect of running a business isn't what I would recommend as sound business practice. Others may disagree.

 

[ubiquitous]

Yes. Protect yourself and your assets. You don't call round with the lease and looking for your deposit 2 months after the tenant has moved in, you do it before you give them the keys.

Okay, what do you do if, as happened in this particular case, the tenant had moved into the property a number of years before the Residential Tenancies Act, and the PRTB, existed?

It's pretty clear of what the legalities of non-compliance with the PRTB are.

Yes...but are you 100% sure that the PRTB will reject an application to register where the landlord cannot obtain the tenant's PPS or where the tenant has no PPS (eg foreign national not in the workforce)? I wonder do the PRTB know themselves?

Having an "Array shure ..." attitude with regard to any aspect of running a business isn't what I would recommend as sound business practice.

Dunno where you picked up that daft accent from, but neither is adopting a rigidly inflexible attitude to regulatory compliance, over and above that of doing all in one's power to comply with whatever regulations are in force.

 

[Howitzer]

Okay, what do you do if, as happened in this particular case, the tenant had moved into the property a number of years before the Residential Tenancies Act, and the PRTB, existed?

Yes...but are you 100% sure that the PRTB will reject an application to register where the landlord cannot obtain the tenant's PPS or where the tenant has no PPS (eg foreign national not in the workforce)? I wonder do the PRTB know themselves?

Send in the form with a note attached stating tenant refused to give PPSN / privacy (I would imagine the PRTB would contact the tenant driectly over the privacy issue.) / didn't have one, and provide the rest of the tenants details. God knows what the PRTB will reply with and how long it will be but at least you then have a paper trail to show that you have made every attempt possible.

 

[Stifster]

Send in the form with a note attached stating tenant refused to give PPSN / privacy (I would imagine the PRTB would contact the tenant driectly over the privacy issue.) / didn't have one, and provide the rest of the tenants details. God knows what the PRTB will reply with and how long it will be but at least you then have a paper trail to show that you have made every attempt possible.

You are still not registered.

 

[Howitzer]

You are still not registered.

But then you HAVE made every effort possible.

Think about it. 2 years down the line Revenue call you up and say you weren't able to claim mortgage interest for 6 months of 2007 because you the tenancy wasn't registered with the PRTB. You tell them you sent the form to the tenant but they never returned it ?! You might as well tell them the dog ate it.

Send the form to the PRTB with tenants contact details if they refuse to divulge their PPSN.

You do know the tenant can do the exact same thing with regard to claiming Rent Relief. They need the lanlords PPSN but if he refuses to give it to them they can just send the form in regardless with a note attached and the landlords contact details.

As Ubiquitous points out compliance isn't about sticking rigidly to unworkable regulations but making every effort possible.

 

[ubiquitous]

Send in the form with a note attached stating tenant refused to give PPSN / privacy (I would imagine the PRTB would contact the tenant driectly over the privacy issue.) / didn't have one, and provide the rest of the tenants details. God knows what the PRTB will reply with and how long it will be but at least you then have a paper trail to show that you have made every attempt possible.

I think this is a good suggestion. The paper trail, even if left unprocessed by the PRTB, should protect the individual against any accusation of non-compliance.

For what its worth, I can't help thinking that it was a big mistake by Brian Cowen to make interest deduction conditional on PRTB registration. The move sounded reasonable in theory but in practice it seems to be riddled with anomalies and pitfalls for the unwary. Anything that makes tax compliance more complicated or awkward for ordinary taxpayers has no place in any Budget or Finance Act.

 

[webtax]

For what its worth, I can't help thinking that it was a big mistake by Brian Cowen to make interest deduction conditional on PRTB registration. The move sounded reasonable in theory but in practice it seems to be riddled with anomalies and pitfalls for the unwary. Anything that makes tax compliance more complicated or awkward for ordinary taxpayers has no place in any Budget or Finance Act.

Especially since the penalties are so severe. Given its importance to landlords filing return this month it is extraordinary that there is no reference to the requirements of the finance act on the prtb homepage.
While this is no excuse for non-compliance, more effort should be made to make property investors aware of this.

 

[Trustmeh]

Excellent. Delighted to see this thread growing legs. I don't think the PRTB will be around in 2 years time if/when you get audited on your tax return. A useless organization with no teeth that is basically an obstacle to genuine respectable landlords running their business properly. If I was a landlord with 00's of properties and the revenue tried to pull no PRTB no interest relief on me I would be hiring the best lawyer I could find and take it to the european courts.


Has anyone ever been to the PRTB offices? I picture two old ladies and one PC in a room the size of a closet.

 

[Stifster]

But then you HAVE made every effort possible.

Think about it. 2 years down the line Revenue call you up and say you weren't able to claim mortgage interest for 6 months of 2007 because you the tenancy wasn't registered with the PRTB. You tell them you sent the form to the tenant but they never returned it ?! You might as well tell them the dog ate it.

Send the form to the PRTB with tenants contact details if they refuse to divulge their PPSN.

You do know the tenant can do the exact same thing with regard to claiming Rent Relief. They need the lanlords PPSN but if he refuses to give it to them they can just send the form in regardless with a note attached and the landlords contact details.

As Ubiquitous points out compliance isn't about sticking rigidly to unworkable regulations but making every effort possible.

That's fair enough but then how long do you keep it up, how do you get rid of the tenants etc the original point was that there is no provision dealing with non-compliance by the tenants which is perfectly valid and it leaves a landlord in limbo.

 

[Stifster]

Excellent. Delighted to see this thread growing legs. I don't think the PRTB will be around in 2 years time if/when you get audited on your tax return. A useless organization with no teeth that is basically an obstacle to genuine respectable landlords running their business properly. If I was a landlord with 00's of properties and the revenue tried to pull no PRTB no interest relief on me I would be hiring the best lawyer I could find and take it to the european courts.


Has anyone ever been to the PRTB offices? I picture two old ladies and one PC in a room the size of a closet.

They do have a public desk it appears, a tenant of a client of mine filed judicial review papers on them, then announced that he was off to hospita; and the dispute resolution hearing would have to be adjourned... I got that information from a very helpful staff member.

 

[Bronte]

I know from reading about it that you can register without the PRSI number of the tenant in exceptional circumstances, I believe asylum seekers don't have this number etc. I also know that I registered tenancies circa January 2005 with just the PRSI number and name of the tenants and the tenants never signed the forms but they apparently are more strict now and send back the form if it's incomplete.

But a more interesting point that has come up here in this discussion is if the landlord fills out the form but does not have a) tenant's signature or b) PRSI number and the the PRTB refuses to register the tenancy is the landlord complying with the revenue then. It would be against natural justice for the revenue to not allow the interest deduction in these circumstances. Have we found a loophole to the legislation?

Best policy nowadays is to get the tenants to sign the PRTB form the day they sign the lease/rent the property.

 

[plus one75]

according to the PRTB I am not entitled to register this property in retrospect so therefore cannot deduct the interest.. yikes- this is going to be one expensive lesson!!

 

[ubiquitous]

according to the PRTB I am not entitled to register this property in retrospect so therefore cannot deduct the interest.. yikes- this is going to be one expensive lesson!!

Do they employ tax advisors? If so, that's news to me. If not, any tax "advice" from them should be treated with extreme suspicion.

 

[plus one75]

Do they employ tax advisors? If so, that's news to me. If not, any tax "advice" from them should be treated with extreme suspicion.

This morning I rang both the revenue and the PRTB.. between the gigs and the reels (I was transferred, put on hold, told to call back, asked about 15 times to repeat the question!) I was eventually told that the PRTB will not accept any registration in retrospect. The revenue then claimed that I could not deduct the interest!! Not too happy about any of the advice though so I think I might try get a third opinion!!!

 

[webtax]

try talking to your tax office and explain that you are registered now. worth a try especially seeing how much it would cost you and the inadequate info provided on this by the relevant bodies.

they might just tell you that's the rules, but you have my sympathies especially when you consider the amount of landlords out there who make no tax returns at all.

 

[ubiquitous]

No matter what the PRTB or Revenue tell you, it doesn't ultimately matter because Revenue specifically disclaim responsibility for "advice" given by staff in the event of it being later found incorrect.

 

[Trustmeh]

No matter what the PRTB or Revenue tell you, it doesn't ultimately matter because Revenue specifically disclaim responsibility for "advice" given by staff in the event of it being later found incorrect.

Agree 100%. Can anyone offer the OP the name of a decent tax adviser...preferably one that has experience in this kind of thing. You arent the first you wont be the last...i highly doubt the PRTB will exist in the same form within two years time.

The problem is its not like you can ring up joe duffy to complain...you wont get any sympathy from the man on the street. Maybe one of the Sunday business shows on radio or the SBP would fight your corner.

 

[webtax]

only problem is that with a week to go the OP will have trouble finding a tax advisor and since this is the first year of this rule no clear precedent has been established. in the event that they can't, a phone call to their local tax office explaining situation might be the only option.

No matter what the PRTB or Revenue tell you, it doesn't ultimately matter because Revenue specifically disclaim responsibility for "advice" given by staff in the event of it being later found incorrect.

agreed, but if you go on the advice from your tax office on the first year a rule is in place (and which hadn't been communicated effectively) you would have a defence.

i would have thought that the purpose of the requirement was to ensure that all landlords started to register their properties with the prtb, rather than a revenue generating exercise from unsuspecting landlords in year one.