Particulars of planning retention

[Cudman]

We bought a house 5 years ago. The guy who sold it to us got planning retention for a couple of things one of which was the lowering of 3 skylights in 2 rooms upstairs in order to comply with fire safety regulations.

He was supposed to carry out the work but we found out on closing day he didn't, we needed to push ahead with the purchase so just bought the house anyway.

How are we fixed now should we sell?

Are we obliged to carry out the work specified in the retention?

Can we sell the upstairs rooms as "storage"?

Can we sell at all, can the house go on the market without the works being done?

 

[Leo]

How are we fixed now should we sell?

As it stands the house is non-compliant and most solicitors would advice their clients not to touch it until such time as the issues are resolved.

You could try and sell but you are reducing your potential market with lenders are getting more and more particular about compliance issues.

 

[Salvadore]

We bought a house 5 years ago. The guy who sold it to us got planning retention for a couple of things one of which was the lowering of 3 skylights in 2 rooms upstairs in order to comply with fire safety regulations.

What do you mean when you say he got ‘planning retention’?

If the building didn’t comply with planning permission, this would only come to the attention of the planning authority if they carried out a subsequent inspection.

If any such inspection did occur, and if a breach was identified, the person could either correct matters or apply for a retention order which would allow them to legally retain the structure as it was.

If your seller received a retention order, there was no obligation to make any structural adjustments. It would have been sold “as is”.

In this instance, how you use the rooms is your own business but, as you’ve alluded to, you may have difficulty describing the rooms as, say, bedrooms if they don’t have certain characteristics. You may get a lesser price as a consequence.

The alternative of course is to carry out the work yourself if you’re unhappy with the current situation.

 

[Salvadore]

He was supposed to carry out the work but we found out on closing day he didn't,

It sounds like you’re saying it was a condition of the sale that he make certain adjustments which he didn’t. You could probably take legal action to enforce this condition but the obvious question is why you’ve taken five years to do so.

You solicitor could best advise of whether you’d have any recourse at this stage.

 

[Cudman]

Thanks for your input Salvadore.

Yeah we had agreed he'd Do the work but he didn't.

We have never used them as bedrooms as there's 4 downstairs which is sufficient.



I was worried that the work not being carried out may prevent us Placing the house on the market full stop.

Would I be right in saying we can list the house as a 4 bed with "attic space". Then advise any potential purchasers that planning has been granted For the conversion of upstairs to 2 further bedrooms if they wish to carry out the work?

 

[cloughy]

Would there be a time stipulation on the retention works, like planning where it lapses after x years?

 

[Cudman]

Would there be a time stipulation on the retention works, like planning where it lapses after x years?

That's what I'm trying to find out.

 

[Salvadore]

Would I be right in saying we can list the house as a 4 bed with "attic space".

Nothing wrong with that in my view.

Then advise any potential purchasers that planning has been granted For the conversion of upstairs to 2 further bedrooms if they wish to carry out the work?

As far as I know, planning permission has a certain lifespan (7 years?) and if the work isn’t completed in that period, it may require a fresh application.

 

[NoRegretsCoyote]

You could try and sell but you are reducing your potential market with lenders are getting more and more particular about compliance issues.

I know almost nothing about planning law but I have relatives who have still not sold a holiday house despite closing eight months ago as the purchaser's lender is concerned about a septic tank from the mid-1980s which was placed closer to the house than the planning permission allowed.

My relatives' own lender made no such enquiries in the late 90s when they bought the place.

So it's true that lenders are more concerned about such matters.

 

[Leo]

Would there be a time stipulation on the retention works, like planning where it lapses after x years?

No, there is no time after which required works lapse.

There is a time limit within which the local authority can initiate enforcement proceedings in the event of conditions not being met or unauthorised development. For unauthorised development, that period is 7 years, but where something wasn't built in accordance with the planning or attached conditions weren't met, that period extends to 12 years.

Note that even after the 7 or 12 years, that does not make the development compliant. Any subsequent application for planning on that site will have to address the issue and lenders are likely to insist the issue be resolved before closing the sale.

 

[Leo]

My relatives' own lender made no such enquiries in the late 90s when they bought the place.

So it's true that lenders are more concerned about such matters.

That's been my experience and what I've been hearing from others too. My first purchase was one with a half built extension, lender didn't care. Last year they went through the planning in detail and the vendor had to get an engineer to certify compliance.

 

[lff12]

We bought a house 5 years ago. The guy who sold it to us got planning retention for a couple of things one of which was the lowering of 3 skylights in 2 rooms upstairs in order to comply with fire safety regulations.

He was supposed to carry out the work but we found out on closing day he didn't, we needed to push ahead with the purchase so just bought the house anyway.

How are we fixed now should we sell?

Are we obliged to carry out the work specified in the retention?

Can we sell the upstairs rooms as "storage"?

Can we sell at all, can the house go on the market without the works being done?

There's a few issues here. Firstly, I'm assuming you are talking about some kind of attic conversion.
You need to understand what retention is in terms of planning applications - its an application to "retain" and normalise something that was done without planning. If that is the case then selling the home without those changes being done will create legal issues - solicitors won't sign off, and banks won't lend.
But there's a secondary issue here and that is that you mention fire safety. If something was done that isn't compliant with fire safety then you probably won't have a valid fire cert (and possibly no fire cert at all) and in the event of a fire involving that part of the building, you could find your insurance reluctant to pay out.

 

[lff12]

As it stands the house is non-compliant and most solicitors would advice their clients not to touch it until such time as the issues are resolved.

You could try and sell but you are reducing your potential market with lenders are getting more and more particular about compliance issues.

Solicitors have to act ethically and not sign off something that is materially untrue. So they have to act in good faith. The red flag here is a granted application for retention. This is where work was done without required planning permission. Look it up - it sounds like there were terms attached to the retention that had to be met. If they were not carried out then the works are not in line with the planning granted.
You first need to follow up on that planning application to see what it was originally about. Its a bit of a red flag that fire safety is mentioned because that suggests that the works are not in compliance with any fire cert originally granted, which could create a problem for you with insurance if a fire occurred in that part of your building. Your building should comply precisely with the designs as specified on all planning documents or there will eventually be issues.

 

[lff12]

No, there is no time after which required works lapse.

There is a time limit within which the local authority can initiate enforcement proceedings in the event of conditions not being met or unauthorised development. For unauthorised development, that period is 7 years, but where something wasn't built in accordance with the planning or attached conditions weren't met, that period extends to 12 years.

Note that even after the 7 or 12 years, that does not make the development compliant. Any subsequent application for planning on that site will have to address the issue and lenders are likely to insist the issue be resolved before closing the sale.

Correct! Solicitors won't sign off on it either. So banks cannot lend. You'd be in cash buyer territory. Or else apply for retention for what is there - but you can still have that rejected. And I'm told there are usage stipulations that apply even after the 7 year and 12 year time gap lapses.

 

[lff12]

Nothing wrong with that in my view.



As far as I know, planning permission has a certain lifespan (7 years?) and if the work isn’t completed in that period, it may require a fresh application.

Planning laws change, and safety requirements with them, so would make sense to treat it as a fresh piece of work and seek professional advice on how to regularise it with the planning requirements of today. Especially if fire safety gets a mention.

 

[lff12]

What do you mean when you say he got ‘planning retention’?

If the building didn’t comply with planning permission, this would only come to the attention of the planning authority if they carried out a subsequent inspection.

If any such inspection did occur, and if a breach was identified, the person could either correct matters or apply for a retention order which would allow them to legally retain the structure as it was.

If your seller received a retention order, there was no obligation to make any structural adjustments. It would have been sold “as is”.

In this instance, how you use the rooms is your own business but, as you’ve alluded to, you may have difficulty describing the rooms as, say, bedrooms if they don’t have certain characteristics. You may get a lesser price as a consequence.

The alternative of course is to carry out the work yourself if you’re unhappy with the current situation.

There may have been conditions attached to the retention that requested additional changes to the works. It would mean that the retention isn't valid in and of itself.

The nearest - and far more more extreme case - was the apartment I rented for 10 years. Landlord inherited it from deceased mother who in turn had inherited from her late husband. The apartment was one of a pair owned together, a duplex over a 1 bed apartment.
Except the original plans designed the building as a 3 storey townhouse. The builder diverged from this and transformed the lower ground floor into a separate 1 bed apartment with own front door and no interior connection. Time passed and rest of development sold. They did get "retention" but declared the unit to be a "lower ground floor of two-storey two bedroomed mews house". Tried to get the detail of the retention from 1997 but mysteriously council couldn't produce. The conditions in this case was an additional parking space be allocated. But the unit itself was not incorporated into the original house. I'm guessing the original owner got a nice discount there. No fire cert could be produced either.

 

[Cudman]

I didn't realise private dwelling need a fire cert?



So just to spell it out -
House was built with the skylights higher than originally planned. Planning retention was sought and granted For the lowering of the skylights.
The work hasn't been done yet, this could prevent a sale of the house on the open market even if upstairs was labelled as "attic storage"?

 

[Horatio]

Would I be right in saying we can list the house as a 4 bed with "attic space".

How about putting in a few Euro to go from marketing it as vanilla "Attic space" to Marketing it as utilitarian "Home office with potential for other use"?

 

[Cudman]

How about putting in a few Euro to go from marketing it as vanilla "Attic space" to Marketing it as utilitarian "Home office with potential for other use"?

The rooms are being used as an office and a play room, we could do that

 

[ClubMan]

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