elacsaplau
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In my opinion, even the current price reflects the low probability of ultimate “complete” success but I don’t have time to elaborate on this now. (It is also at least possible that BTC achieves some “intermediate” level of success – again beyond the scope of this post.)
......elac was absolutely right to dump those BTC and that is entirely consistent with my belief that they are (next to) worthless. But it also highlights that elac also believes that they are intrinsically (next to) worthless.
Not sure what else there is to say, to be honest.
I'd really love to know who's in on this?
I do not use the term speculate in a derogatory way, only to say that someone buying it is only doing so with the intention of later selling it to someone else, I believe this is a common usage of the term. So saying that one speculates on gold or bitcoin, is using it as a store of wealth, or plans to sell it to a greater fool are all the same thing, it's just semantics. One distinction you can make is the time frame, i.e short term speculation vs long term speculation.
I agree that a lot of people speculating on bitcoin right now are in doing it for the short term, especially compared to something like gold.I agree and should have included this in my post. In my opinion, speculating is buying something with the expectation or hope that its value increases (a lot) in the short term. I would think most bitcoin purchases are for this reason at the moment. In contrast, investing (in my book) is buying something with the expectation of it increasing in price over the medium to longer-term.
It already does fall into that category in places like Venezuela and Argentina for at least some people. There have been first hand reports by people in the bitcoin community that live in these countries. A key aspect of this is that with bitcoin is easier to get around border controls. I guess the majority would still prefer plain old US dollars though, even over gold.A lot of people buy gold or art to simply store wealth in uncertain times. They are not too concerned with it gaining in value (although that's always nice) but the key concern being that their wealth is preserved. Perhaps Bitcoin will ultimately fall into this category too who knows.
I think it was undervalued at $200, I think it might be short term overvalued now. I would be surprised it ever went under $1000 again without having failed to function as it does now, or having been replaced by something better.One thing I have an issue with though is the recent explosion in the price of bitcoin. Either some new feature / functionality has been uncovered or that it was (mysteriously) completely under-valued until now. Of course, the other reason is that it's a bubble.
One way or the other it will.I know next to nothing about bitcoin but I have a feeling this is will in a Reeling Back the Years in years to come...
I think it was undervalued at $200, I think it might be short term overvalued now.
I would be surprised it ever went under $1000 again without having failed to function as it does now, or having been replaced by something better.
It already does fall into that category in places like Venezuela and Argentina for at least some people. There have been first hand reports by people in the bitcoin community that live in these countries. A key aspect of this is that with bitcoin is easier to get around border controls.
I don't have a formal methodology, so these are numbers off the top of my head, based on years of looking at price action, and sentiment among traders about what they consider cheap or expensive. Completely my own opinion, so everyone should treat it only as that.What is the basis for your valuation? Sorry for pressing you on this. But there should be some methodology to arrive at a value of €x.
What does "short term overvalued" mean? That it's not worth $15,000 yet, but will be at some stage in the future?
Yeah, could take a while to consider all of the ways. Maybe enough governments intervening to drive it underground, maybe a bug though I expect any bug would only lead to short term disruption and would be fixed unless it's some kind of general failure of cryptography in which case the world has bigger problems than bitcoin to worry about.It could well fail to function as it does now.
Even if it happens, it won't happen happen overnight. I don't consider it a risk to holding bitcoins, because I'll be able to exchange bitcoins for whatever the better alternative is if the time comes. Ethereum is the only thing that ever came close so far, and it took months.It could well be replaced by any other crytpo currency.
I disagree, again just my educated opinion of course.But it could continue to function as it does now and it does not need to be replaced by some other cryptocurrency to fall to its true value of zero.
Yes, or perhaps more accurately that demand cannot currently sustain a value of 15k but may do so in the future. I think the transaction capacity needs to drastically improve to support users at the levels we're seeing now.What does "short term overvalued" mean? That it's not worth $15,000 yet, but will be at some stage in the future?
It's funny because I think the same exact same thing about many people who don't get bitcoin.It seems to me that many of bitcoins supporters do not understand the nature of money.
Government currencies are only a subset of money, and gold which is the longest surviving money has been around longer than all of them. As wikipedia says: "Money is historically an emergent market phenomenon establishing a commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money."The idea that a currency is controlled by a government or a central bank is often portrayed as a bad thing, whereas that is exactly what gives a currency its value.
Correct, bitcoin relies on better fulfilling the functions of money than its competitors to achieve adoption, rather than coercion. It is an emergent market phenomenon.A Euro is worth something because the law requires creditors to accept Euro in settlement of debt. This will never happen with bitcoin as no solvent central bank will ever allow something it cannot control to become its currency.
I agree with most of that cremeegg. But of course there are notorious instances of fiat currencies losing their value (Weimar, Zimbabwe, Argentina, Russia, Israel, everywhere in the mid part of the last century).There are two reasons to buy bitcoin. Because you hope to sell it later for a higher price or because you can use it as a medium of exchange.
I posed the question on another thread if Bitcoin is actually used as a medium of exchange. The answer would seem to rarely if ever.
The hope to sell later at a higher price has two possible bases, finding a greater fool, always worth a punt, but not really much for rational discussion.
The other possibility is that Bitcoin will become established as a new form of money. If it does it will be radically different from any previous type of money. It seems to me that many of bitcoins supporters do not understand the nature of money. The idea that a currency is controlled by a government or a central bank is often portrayed as a bad thing, whereas that is exactly what gives a currency its value.
A Euro is worth something because the law requires creditors to accept Euro in settlement of debt. This will never happen with bitcoin as no solvent central bank will ever allow something it cannot control to become its currency.
Brendan raises the question elsewhere of all currencies collapsing simultaneously, but this could only happen as a result of some major catastrophe. Tins of beans will be the only currency then.
"Money is historically an emergent market phenomenon establishing a commodity money
nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money."
Bitcoin will return to zero or close to zero. I don't know whether it will have any residual value or not. But if you have €200,000 worth of Bitcoin now, they will be worth less than €200 and probably zero in time.
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