One early investor's story about Bitcoin and criticism of Brendan's absolutist position

Hi Brendan,

I dealt with a single element of a very broad subject and even that took me ages to do.

In a post where I was giving out about being misrepresented, I didn't think that that post itself would also be misrepresented.

Here's an example - this is my only reference to BTC's valuation/price - i.e. this is what I actually said:

In my opinion, even the current price reflects the low probability of ultimate “complete” success but I don’t have time to elaborate on this now. (It is also at least possible that BTC achieves some “intermediate” level of success – again beyond the scope of this post.)

So in two sentences, I said twice that I simply I don't have time to get into BTC's pricing now.

This then somehow gets interpreted as:

......elac was absolutely right to dump those BTC and that is entirely consistent with my belief that they are (next to) worthless. But it also highlights that elac also believes that they are intrinsically (next to) worthless.

I just did not say this and it's not my belief.

Not sure what else there is to say, to be honest.

Me neither. Our points of agreement are probably greater than our differences. Let's just leave it at that.
 
I know what Brendan is saying but there's an awful lot of people trading all the same. I'd really love to know who's in on this? Are the big boys of the trading world creating a "sting" scenario in the market place? See below;

11 Dec 2017 12:12
Bitcoin futures eased back from an initial surge of almost 22% to trade 13% higher today, in an eagerly awaited US market debut that backers hope will confer greater legitimacy on the cryptocurrency and lead to its wider use.
Bitcoin futures were already offered on some unregulated cryptocurrency exchanges outside the US.
But the Chicago-based Cboe Global Markets' launch marked the first time investors could get exposure to the market via a mainstream regulated exchange.
The debut on Sunday night may have caused an early outage of the Cboe website. The exchange said that due to heavy traffic, the site "may be temporarily unavailable".
The one-month bitcoin contract opened trade at $15,460, dipped briefly before rising to a high of $18,700 and then slipped again.
The one-month future was up 13% in early afternoon trade from the open at $17,450, around $1,000 higher than the "spot" bitcoin price - the price at which bitcoin is currently being bought and sold.
The two-month contract was trading at $18,880, while the three-month contract was changing hands at $19,040.
In just over 12 hours after the launch, 2,780 contracts had been traded, meaning around $48.5m had been notionally invested.
That compares with daily trading volumes of more than $20 billion across all cryptocurrencies, according to trade website Coinmarketcap.
Just 13 trades of the two-month contracts had been traded.
Analysts said that it will take time for derivative volumes to build up, but eventually if they prove to be a significant percentage of the global trade, they should in theory help stabilise things.
 
Hi Elacs - I have absolutely no idea what this means:

"In my opinion, even the current price reflects the low probability of ultimate “complete” success but I don’t have time to elaborate on this now."

Can you say in plain English what you think the value of Bitcoin is today and what value, or range of values, will it have in 12 months' time?

Then you are less likely to be misquoted.

Brendan
 
You can look at the volume of various exchanges around the world. Ones that primarily service customers within their own country can give some idea. There has apparently been a lot of buying in Japan and South Korea in recent months.

Another way to get a good idea of adoption in various countries is to look at this data from localbitcoins.com which is an exchange that allows people to trade peer-to-peer, and thus is not limited to a single geographical location in any way:

https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins

The CEO of coinbase in the US said they have 8 times the number of customers that they had in June. the last hard figure I saw from them was over 13 million total.
 
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I do not use the term speculate in a derogatory way, only to say that someone buying it is only doing so with the intention of later selling it to someone else, I believe this is a common usage of the term. So saying that one speculates on gold or bitcoin, is using it as a store of wealth, or plans to sell it to a greater fool are all the same thing, it's just semantics. One distinction you can make is the time frame, i.e short term speculation vs long term speculation.

I agree and should have included this in my post. In my opinion, speculating is buying something with the expectation or hope that its value increases (a lot) in the short term. I would think most bitcoin purchases are for this reason at the moment. In contrast, investing (in my book) is buying something with the expectation of it increasing in price over the medium to longer-term.

A lot of people buy gold or art to simply store wealth in uncertain times. They are not too concerned with it gaining in value (although that's always nice) but the key concern being that their wealth is preserved. Perhaps Bitcoin will ultimately fall into this category too who knows.

One thing I have an issue with though is the recent explosion in the price of bitcoin. Either some new feature / functionality has been uncovered or that it was (mysteriously) completely under-valued until now. Of course, the other reason is that it's a bubble.

I know next to nothing about bitcoin but I have a feeling this is will in a Reeling Back the Years in years to come...
 
I agree and should have included this in my post. In my opinion, speculating is buying something with the expectation or hope that its value increases (a lot) in the short term. I would think most bitcoin purchases are for this reason at the moment. In contrast, investing (in my book) is buying something with the expectation of it increasing in price over the medium to longer-term.
I agree that a lot of people speculating on bitcoin right now are in doing it for the short term, especially compared to something like gold.

A lot of people buy gold or art to simply store wealth in uncertain times. They are not too concerned with it gaining in value (although that's always nice) but the key concern being that their wealth is preserved. Perhaps Bitcoin will ultimately fall into this category too who knows.
It already does fall into that category in places like Venezuela and Argentina for at least some people. There have been first hand reports by people in the bitcoin community that live in these countries. A key aspect of this is that with bitcoin is easier to get around border controls. I guess the majority would still prefer plain old US dollars though, even over gold.

One thing I have an issue with though is the recent explosion in the price of bitcoin. Either some new feature / functionality has been uncovered or that it was (mysteriously) completely under-valued until now. Of course, the other reason is that it's a bubble.
I think it was undervalued at $200, I think it might be short term overvalued now. I would be surprised it ever went under $1000 again without having failed to function as it does now, or having been replaced by something better.

I know next to nothing about bitcoin but I have a feeling this is will in a Reeling Back the Years in years to come...
One way or the other it will.
 
I think it was undervalued at $200, I think it might be short term overvalued now.

What is the basis for your valuation? Sorry for pressing you on this. But there should be some methodology to arrive at a value of €x.

What does "short term overvalued" mean? That it's not worth $15,000 yet, but will be at some stage in the future?

I would be surprised it ever went under $1000 again without having failed to function as it does now, or having been replaced by something better.

They are two significant caveats.

It could well fail to function as it does now.

It could well be replaced by any other crytpo currency.

But it could continue to function as it does now and it does not need to be replaced by some other cryptocurrency to fall to its true value of zero.

Brendan
 
It already does fall into that category in places like Venezuela and Argentina for at least some people. There have been first hand reports by people in the bitcoin community that live in these countries. A key aspect of this is that with bitcoin is easier to get around border controls.

I can't blame them. Decades socialism will result in that sure enough!

I have a feeling that bitcoin will still be around in years to come and wouldn't be surprised if it itself was linked to the price of gold, either the same value per ounce or a multiple / fraction of it.

There's a part of me that would like to take a punt (and that's all it would be), but the inevitable "chat" we'd end up having at home just wouldn't be worth it!!
 
What is the basis for your valuation? Sorry for pressing you on this. But there should be some methodology to arrive at a value of €x.

What does "short term overvalued" mean? That it's not worth $15,000 yet, but will be at some stage in the future?
I don't have a formal methodology, so these are numbers off the top of my head, based on years of looking at price action, and sentiment among traders about what they consider cheap or expensive. Completely my own opinion, so everyone should treat it only as that.

It could well fail to function as it does now.
Yeah, could take a while to consider all of the ways. Maybe enough governments intervening to drive it underground, maybe a bug though I expect any bug would only lead to short term disruption and would be fixed unless it's some kind of general failure of cryptography in which case the world has bigger problems than bitcoin to worry about.

It could well be replaced by any other crytpo currency.
Even if it happens, it won't happen happen overnight. I don't consider it a risk to holding bitcoins, because I'll be able to exchange bitcoins for whatever the better alternative is if the time comes. Ethereum is the only thing that ever came close so far, and it took months.

But it could continue to function as it does now and it does not need to be replaced by some other cryptocurrency to fall to its true value of zero.
I disagree, again just my educated opinion of course.
 
What does "short term overvalued" mean? That it's not worth $15,000 yet, but will be at some stage in the future?
Yes, or perhaps more accurately that demand cannot currently sustain a value of 15k but may do so in the future. I think the transaction capacity needs to drastically improve to support users at the levels we're seeing now.

I honestly never thought much beyond 10k until recently, that had been my ballpark of the likely upside target.
 
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There are two reasons to buy bitcoin. Because you hope to sell it later for a higher price or because you can use it as a medium of exchange.

I posed the question on another thread if Bitcoin is actually used as a medium of exchange. The answer would seem to rarely if ever.

The hope to sell later at a higher price has two possible bases, finding a greater fool, always worth a punt, but not really much for rational discussion.

The other possibility is that Bitcoin will become established as a new form of money. If it does it will be radically different from any previous type of money. It seems to me that many of bitcoins supporters do not understand the nature of money. The idea that a currency is controlled by a government or a central bank is often portrayed as a bad thing, whereas that is exactly what gives a currency its value.

A Euro is worth something because the law requires creditors to accept Euro in settlement of debt. This will never happen with bitcoin as no solvent central bank will ever allow something it cannot control to become its currency.

Brendan raises the question elsewhere of all currencies collapsing simultaneously, but this could only happen as a result of some major catastrophe. Tins of beans will be the only currency then.
 
fpalb,
Why is 10k your ballpark target, it could just as easily be €1, so why not €1,000,000.00? How can anyone value nothing? It's a bit like someone opening a jar in Ireland, closing it again, then selling it as pure Irish Air. As long as you don't open the lid you'll have the air inside but it's value????????????
 
It seems to me that many of bitcoins supporters do not understand the nature of money.
It's funny because I think the same exact same thing about many people who don't get bitcoin.

The idea that a currency is controlled by a government or a central bank is often portrayed as a bad thing, whereas that is exactly what gives a currency its value.
Government currencies are only a subset of money, and gold which is the longest surviving money has been around longer than all of them. As wikipedia says: "Money is historically an emergent market phenomenon establishing a commodity money, but nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money."
The question of why the nature of money has changed is important.

A Euro is worth something because the law requires creditors to accept Euro in settlement of debt. This will never happen with bitcoin as no solvent central bank will ever allow something it cannot control to become its currency.
Correct, bitcoin relies on better fulfilling the functions of money than its competitors to achieve adoption, rather than coercion. It is an emergent market phenomenon.
 
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Jeepers Noproblem,

Is this your variation of Schrodinger's cat?;)
 
There are two reasons to buy bitcoin. Because you hope to sell it later for a higher price or because you can use it as a medium of exchange.

I posed the question on another thread if Bitcoin is actually used as a medium of exchange. The answer would seem to rarely if ever.

The hope to sell later at a higher price has two possible bases, finding a greater fool, always worth a punt, but not really much for rational discussion.

The other possibility is that Bitcoin will become established as a new form of money. If it does it will be radically different from any previous type of money. It seems to me that many of bitcoins supporters do not understand the nature of money. The idea that a currency is controlled by a government or a central bank is often portrayed as a bad thing, whereas that is exactly what gives a currency its value.

A Euro is worth something because the law requires creditors to accept Euro in settlement of debt. This will never happen with bitcoin as no solvent central bank will ever allow something it cannot control to become its currency.

Brendan raises the question elsewhere of all currencies collapsing simultaneously, but this could only happen as a result of some major catastrophe. Tins of beans will be the only currency then.
I agree with most of that cremeegg. But of course there are notorious instances of fiat currencies losing their value (Weimar, Zimbabwe, Argentina, Russia, Israel, everywhere in the mid part of the last century).

It requires more than simply insisting that suppliers accept the currency; it crucially requires management of the price level. Governments are in prime position to achieve that. The monetary supply these days is delegated to Central Banks who are given mandates. But where governments also have a key role in setting the price level is that they are massive economic agents in their own right. They set the prices of the services they supply and will accept the fiat currency in paying for these services (through taxes of course but in many other ways).

The fiat currency is by far the most efficient medium of exchange. In fact, so far as I can make out, BTC, on the rare occasion that it does act as a medium of exchange for goods and services, is first exchanged for a fiat currency.

As a store of value the fiat currency relies on confidence that the price level will be reasonably stable - a 2% inflation is conventionally regarded as the optimal target to strike a balance between conferring store of value versus hoarding. With these wild swings BTC is a hopeless store of value (I know fpalb disagrees with me here but I think that is a semantic difference).

So, repeating myself, if BTC is almost negligible as a medium of exchange for goods and services and is hopeless as a store of value then the only thing underpinning the price is the speculative motive. That reminds me of tulips:rolleyes:
 
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"Money is historically an emergent market phenomenon establishing a commodity money

My understanding of this is that as economies developed or "emerged", barter as a means of exchange became too cumbersome and so commodity money developed. That is a standardised unit of something that had value of itself. Salt as an example.

nearly all contemporary money systems are based on fiat money."

Indeed. And my understanding of that development is that as trade developed further commodity money also became cumbersome and so fiat currency was developed. This is money which while worthless of itself, just a bit of paper, has value because the law supports it. The law, a government or its central bank, says that it must be accepted in payment of debt and taxes. Without that legal support a €50 note is just a piece of paper. This legal support is all that gives fiat money its value. Bitcoin has no such support.

The central bank control of fiat money does of course mean that the central bank can manipulate the value of its currency, by printing more, by raising interest rates. This control by the central bank is limited by the need to maintain confidence. Print too much money and your tax receipts will be devalued. Some people think this CB control is a bad thing. (I do not agree but that is another argument. Actually the Duke develops this point above, our posts crossed).

Bitcoin has no such CB control, I have yet to see any explanation why this is a good thing, beyond a general dislike of government interference.
 
Bitcoin will return to zero or close to zero. I don't know whether it will have any residual value or not. But if you have €200,000 worth of Bitcoin now, they will be worth less than €200 and probably zero in time.

Finally at least an acknowledgment
of a dim shade of grey on what was a rigidly black and white argument.
 
Duke you know well I'm not sorry to have missed any boat. As regards Tuilips. I've a nearer comparison. When the Celtic tiger was rising I used to come back to Ireland in wonder at how Ireland was and how I'd lost out. How everybody was suddenly rich. I posted on here about various instances of it. Some of you might remember my post about wandering into a furniture store to be hit by sign for credit. Thus Bitcoin reminds me of that madness.

Another, my sibling told me I'd missed the boat and they would be millionaires in a couple of years. 10 hard years later I see the pain that madness brought.

Elac will be fine if he has banked. He seems to be in it for pure speculation. He will make money on the later idiots. As long as he doesn't go back in with his winnings. I await his figures on life changing banking.
 
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