Notice to Clear Mortgage Balance of €44k, Vulture Fund

J

JD2021

Registered User
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Hi all,

I'm new to AAM so please bare with me.

I won't mention the Fund applicable but they purchased my mortgage about 2 years ago. I'll be honest and had difficulties over the past 4 years but always maintained interest only payments etc.

Mortgage taken out in 2001, small top up 2003.

Total Balance outstanding is €44k, of which there is warehoused arrears included in takeover, this was a 5 year agreement, just expired and may explain the Vulture funds move.

So this morning out of the Blue letter's arrived with a demand for full balance to be cleared within 7 days, after that legal proceedings to follow. This was genuinely not expected infact a new short term rolling arrangement was planned start of August.

Astonished and quite taken aback, I contacted Abhaile (Mabs), unbelievably helpful and have commenced a process. It was let slip a surge in such activity has commenced. Obviously this won't stop whatever action the Vulture fund wish to take. I've read about options, PIA being a possibility but gosh the fee's are high anything up to 7k depending on complexity, I don't begrudge professional fees for expert advice, just wasn't expecting it.

Due to a long term illness my income will be affected so I need to be realistic. My Home (Small cottage) is quite rural, I've no dependents, single with an approx value of €160k.

So here's the question, sorry for the amount of details.

I have potential access to near enough the €44k to clear the balance but only if repossession likely.

Seperately Going down the PIA route will be expensive albeit some potential debt forgiveness (I understand nothing certain) and years of obligations etc. I want to keep my home, at 54 Never ever intended selling, mine is certainly not a trophy property but idealic if that's the right word. My other fear is there's very little incentive for a Vulture fund to agree to a PIA in my current situation.

What are peoples thoughts on trying to reach a settlement, no courts, additional costs etc. Is it unlikely given my equity is quite high and actual balance relatively low that a Vulture fund would accept a small discounted offer, is it even worth trying?

I need to reiterate, the offer to clear comes from a dear friend with no strings attached but I will fully intend assigning property in some way to that friend, my case is genuine, illness and reduced income has been my honest challenge and maybe into the future.

Thanks for any advice and please no prejudging, I accept my responsibilities, just looking for an amicable cost effective solution.
 
Hi JD

First of all, no need to panic.

I presume it was a 20 year mortgage and the term is up.

Even if the Fund is minded to take legal action against you, it would take them years to get anywhere.

What is your net income?
How much can you afford to pay?
Interest only on €44k is very little.

For example, €44,000 @ 4% interest over 10 years wold be repayments of €450 per month. Can you afford that?

I would recommend you start paying as much as you can afford. If you can pay more than €450, then you should do so.

Abhaile should put a proposal on this basis to the fund. They would be mad not to accept it.

If they ever take legal action and the judge sees that you will have the mortgage cleared in time, they will not grant an order for possession.

Brendan
 
JD2021 said:
My other fear is there's very little incentive for a Vulture fund to agree to a PIA in my current situation.
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Under the recently updated legislation the fund would be obliged to accept the terms of a PIA provided it paid off the mortgage in full.

Given the size of the debt I would suggest that you let MABS try and negotiate a settlement.

Jim Stafford
 
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi JD

First of all, no need to panic.

I presume it was a 20 year mortgage and the term is up.

Even if the Fund is minded to take legal action against you, it would take them years to get anywhere.

What is your net income?
How much can you afford to pay?
Interest only on €44k is very little.

For example, €44,000 @ 4% interest over 10 years wold be repayments of €450 per month. Can you afford that?

I would recommend you start paying as much as you can afford. If you can pay more than €450, then you should do so.

Abhaile should put a proposal on this basis to the fund. They would be mad not to accept it.

If they ever take legal action and the judge sees that you will have the mortgage cleared in time, they will not grant an order for possession.

Brendan
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Brendan, thanks so much for the reply.

Honestly, I got a shock yesterday with the demand and have started the process re abhaile.

In essence my challenge is affordability
Brendan Burgess said:
Hi JD

First of all, no need to panic.

I presume it was a 20 year mortgage and the term is up.

Even if the Fund is minded to take legal action against you, it would take them years to get anywhere.

What is your net income?
How much can you afford to pay?
Interest only on €44k is very little.

For example, €44,000 @ 4% interest over 10 years wold be repayments of €450 per month. Can you afford that?

I would recommend you start paying as much as you can afford. If you can pay more than €450, then you should do so.

Abhaile should put a proposal on this basis to the fund. They would be mad not to accept it.

If they ever take legal action and the judge sees that you will have the mortgage cleared in time, they will not grant an order for possession.

Brendan
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Brendan, thanks so much , My first ever post :)

I got a genuine fright yesterday morning. Essentially whilst the debt in relative terms not very high, I am factoring in potential reduced income for the foreseeable future due to an illness. Honestly I think I would struggle @ €450 a month.

The private offer to assist is obviously not being disclosed at this stage , I assume when I do meet with Mabs/Abhaile etc I may have to mention it. What I was thinking without disclosing too much info was to put a number of scenario's to the Vulture Fund and see how they react. I am anxious not only to try a reach a solution but also lesson if at all possible the pain. From a health perspective I also believe a quick solution is better rather than dragging this on for years. I certainly appreciate the work PIP do but if I could get a quick cost effective solution it would be ideal.
 
JD2021 said:
Honestly I think I would struggle @ €450 a month.
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What can you afford?

The interest on €44k @4% is about €150 a month.

If you pay more than this you are reducing the balance and eventually the mortgage will be paid off.

If you just pay €150 a month, you will always owe the money.

So pay more than €150 and it would be stupid of the lender to try to repossess.

Brendan
 
OP seems to have had some hard personal circumstances. Illness when self-employed can be very difficult financially in Ireland.

I don't know how the fund will look at it but I would think it should be possible to repay in full. Repaying €44k at 4% over 15 years is only €300 a month.

To me this is manageable on illness benefit or state pension in due course. Everyone has to pay something for shelter.
 
Jim Stafford said:
Under the recently updated legislation the fund would be obliged to accept the terms of a PIA provided it paid off the mortgage in full.

Given the size of the debt I would suggest that you let MABS try and negotiate a settlement.

Jim Stafford
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Morning Jim and thanks so much.

I am at a very early stage re the Mabs process and will certainly be guided as much as possible by them and indeed opinions such as yours. I suppose the crux of my dilemma is being aware privately I have an option (Very grateful and unexpected) and how to show my hand as such, obviously I want to be completely transparent. What I need to avoid is adding substantial legal costs, expenses to a process of trying to resolve this once and for all. I certainly appreciate your input
Brendan Burgess said:
What can you afford?

The interest on €44k @4% is about €150 a month.

If you pay more than this you are reducing the balance and eventually the mortgage will be paid off.

If you just pay €150 a month, you will always owe the money.

So pay more than €150 and it would be stupid of the lender to try to repossess.

Brendan
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Thanks Brendan,

I've unfortunately discovered an additional complication, only discovered this morning on getting some info together. Requesting a credit report, that will take time but also details on my property folio, showing a judgement mortgage in 2009, honestly I believed this was part of the sale of my mortgage to Vulture fund, but I may not be, it relates to a dispute with original mortgage provider re a personal loan, the amount is not clear but certainly below €8k.i apologise for not disclosing this, I genuinely just assumed it was absorbed in whatever arrangement was made with Vulture Fund, today is the first time I ever searched my property folio. I've not had a single item of correspondence on this issue since the date it was registered , it was registered on the 4th Feb 2009 but only uploaded to land registry in 2011.

So this puts a new perspective on whatever I come up with re a settlement, perhaps this new issue is what's motivated a move by Vulture fund albeit a judgement registered just over 12 years ago.

I'll need a bigger thinking cap on now, please understand this is new info, had I known I would have included it when posting originally.
 
Did they sell the personal debt to the Vulture Fund as well? I suspect not, if the fund did not mention it to you in their letter.

If not, the VF is only interested in getting the €44k.

If you pay that off over 15 years, you will still have the judgement mortgage, but lenders rarely try to seek an order based on a judgement mortgage.

so it will stay there until you die and your Executor sells the house.

Brendan
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
OP seems to have had some hard personal circumstances. Illness when self-employed can be very difficult financially in Ireland.

I don't know how the fund will look at it but I would think it should be possible to repay in full. Repaying €44k at 4% over 15 years is only €300 a month.

To me this is manageable on illness benefit or state pension in due course. Everyone has to pay something for shelter.
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Thank you for the response, I've just updated an additional complication I've discovered this morning, a judgement mortgage by original mortgage provider, information I genuinely was not aware of. It doesn't overly change the bigger picture however.

Based on responses to date, even with the new information, I believe a settlement can be reached. If at all possible my approach will be get a bottom line figure and make an offer. I believe common sense will prevail (hopefully) in the end.

Thanks again
Brendan Burgess said:
Did they sell the personal debt to the Vulture Fund as well? I suspect not, if the fund did not mention it to you in their letter.

If not, the VF is only interested in getting the €44k.

If you pay that off over 15 years, you will still have the judgement mortgage, but lenders rarely try to seek an order based on a judgement mortgage.

so it will stay there until you die and your Executor sells the house.

Brendan
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Thanks Brendan for not pre judging, I only discovered this seperate issue after joining AAM.

You are correct, I feel, VF did not take over this debt. Obviously when I'm negotiating I'll disclose this Seperately, VF have never even mentioned it and as I've said, neither has original provider since it was registered back in Feb 2009.

Obviously I'm keen to get everything done and dusted and will have to investigate if this judgement is even enforceable at this stage. One final question if I may, why would details of this only be registered in 2011? Would that be normal?
 
Thanks again Brendan, no doubting your wiser than I and yes I'll keep this issue entirely separate, my only concern was could this separate issue suddenly raises its head with it being enforced as it were. I've an offer of assistance and want to be 100% upfront in whatever assistance I recieve, the person is not related to me but acted as Gaurdian since a very young age (another complicated story)

Thanks so sincerely, your advice has been genuinely appreciated.
 
Just to be absolutely clear.

You also need to tell your helper that you have this judgement.

You just don't need to tell the lender. If they ask you to fill out a Standard Financial Statement of your income and expenditure and assets and liabilities, then you need to tell them.

Brendan
 
Just a quick update and additional advice if possible. As I'm new to understanding Judgement mortgages, am I correct in understanding the date the judgement mortgage is registered on my properties folio is the revelent date as opposed to the date court judgement was obtained? In essence there's a two year Gap but March 2011 is when details added to folio.

I am awaiting a refferal for consult with a PIP so trying to get as much info as possible ready. Whilst there is no obvious movement on the Judgement mortgage obviously it could potentially be enforced at any time and this worries me. If I go for a PIA there will essentially be two creditors. Vulture Fund seeking Full balance of €44k and Judgement Mortgage (I don't know its value, but guessing €10k). My house valued approx €150k, being Conservative. I won't say who judgement mortgage in favor of but its my original mortgage provider and to do with restructuring of finance that went sour.

I'm in a possible position with asstance to clear €13k off actual mortgage (this is warehoused debt) and with asstance maintain mortgage payments for remainder of mortgage term of 5 years. I am not in a position to deal with judgement mortgage and the possibility of it being enforced will remain as long as its valid. So, I'm really stuck on a decision.

A. Can the Judgement mortgage be included in any over all PIA arrangement?

B. My motivation is not to seek a reduction in my liabilities but my earning potential as explained diminished for the foreseeable future, Is my equity value almost too high for creditors to accept a PIA?

C. Do I focus on the Judgement mortgage, try and deal with that and just consider a PIA for actual Mortgage?

D. I don't have a figure on value of Judgement mortgage, I've requested a full credit report from Central Bank, will this show up?

Apologies for all the questions and I appreciate any advice offered.
 
Do judgement mortgages not have a 12 year time limit? Has the bank or anyone written to you, OP, about it in the last 12 years - you may have grounds to have it cancelled. MABS could advise you on this.
 
Smaug~~°w°~~ said:
Do judgement mortgages not have a 12 year time limit? Has the bank or anyone written to you, OP, about it in the last 12 years - you may have grounds to have it cancelled. MABS could advise you on this.
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Hi there, they do but I was mistaken on my understanding of date of award, the judgement was awarded in March 2009, but registered as a judgement mortgage until 2011, I've had zero communication with the creditor on this (actually original home mortgage provider) since 2009 and enforcement never attempted. So I now appreciate this could potentially happen so need to accept this when speaking with Mabs, PIP. My question is, would this be considered as a part of any potential PIA? and if I had the choice (potentially) to clear all warehoused Mortgage debt (€14k) or address this judgement mortgage (approx for €11k) my actual mortgage balance to include everything is €44k. I guess my thinking is if I wasn't approved for a PIA, the most pressing concern may be enforcement of Judgement mortgage alot easier than a repossession process which is Threatened by VF who bought my mortgage 2 years ago, as Brendan advised I should not panic, I guess its deciding whether to clear all mortgage arrears before considering potential PIA, perhaps giving me a more manageable obligation for whatever term maybe proposed.

Thanks so much for the response
 
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is the 12 years start from the date the judgement is obtained not from when registered with the land registry. It might seem unlikely that a bank would let it lapse but I'd double check those dates and apply to have it cancelled if possible.
 
Gosh I would hope your might be correct (but it might be wishful thinking on my behalf) there's two very distinct dates I have to hand, indeed on the folio I requested from Land registry,, it actually shows the date of actual initial court judgement in the details section of folio (2009) and obviously the date it was added to folio 2011 as a judgement mortgage. So I'm presuming that actual date of importance is when it was added to folio as a mortgage judgement if I'm making sense. It's a main bank also and I've not heard a word about this since 2009, date of court judgement, I'm guessing primarily because until they sold my mortgage, they were not worried albeit it is curious the VF have never raised it albeit not of concern them unless property was be sold ( which never contemplated)

Thanks again, will be interesting as to what others thoughts are on this question
 
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I'd recommend against telling the VF that you have access to a lump sum. Ask for a full and final settlement figure if you want, just to see what might be possible.

I'd say your best bet is to continue with repayments, provided they're above €150 a month. There's very little the VF can do, other than waste everyone's time with letters and fruitless court proceedings.
 
MugsGame said:
I'd recommend against telling the VF that you have access to a lump sum. Ask for a full and final settlement figure if you want, just to see what might be possible.

I'd say your best bet is to continue with repayments, provided they're above €150 a month. There's very little the VF can do, other than waste everyone's time with letters and fruitless court proceedings.
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Excellent advice and thank you, yes, I've decided to absolutely give nothing away to VF and allow the experts advise accordingly, I was advise to send a standard letter seeking one definitive info etc after telephone consult with Mabs, I'm awaiting actual face to face very soon as there's a waiting list etc, I'll hold off on any direct contact with VF, thanks again, curious about what you mean re continuing payments above €150? if you don't mind me asking.

Just an additional update, I'd actually agreed a 6 month payment plan at interest only with VF to commence May 1st, they confirmed this in writing and then sent the demand letters on the 28th June, I've also asked VF to explain this. Either various departments not communicating or they've just decided to put pressure on, either way I believe a possible breach of Mortgage resolution guidelines.
 
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