"No jobs mantra suits the work-shy and welfare abuser"

Complainer said:
Would you care to give some kinds of examples of the kinds of business and industries that will create new jobs (not displace existing jobs) by offering wages below the current minimum wage level?
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If businesses can offer their services at lower prices they will win more international business. That's obvious. Do you think it is otherwise?
 
Purple said:
If businesses can offer their services at lower prices they will win more international business. That's obvious. Do you think it is otherwise?
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Not only that, but the improved success of this business will attract new entrants into the market, chasing these improved profits, which will also imcrease employment.
 
Firefly said:
Not only that, but the improved success of this business will attract new entrants into the market, chasing these improved profits, which will also imcrease employment.
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Yes, that's basic common sense. Therefore plenty of people won't understand.
 
Firefly said:
but the improved success of this business will attract new entrants into the market, chasing these improved profits, which will also imcrease employment.
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I'll repeat the question - maybe instead of repeating the tired old mantras of the defunct PDs, you could give some kinds of examples of the kinds of business and industries that will create new jobs (not displace existing jobs) by offering wages below the current minimum wage level?
 
Complainer said:
I'll repeat the question - maybe instead of repeating the tired old mantras of the defunct PDs, you could give some kinds of examples of the kinds of business and industries that will create new jobs (not displace existing jobs) by offering wages below the current minimum wage level?
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It's as much a question of retaining employment as creating employment in this economy and the restaurant business would be an obvious sector.

According to the article below there is a restaurant closing every day due to high costs.

http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/group-restaurant-closures-running-at-one-a-day-135775.html

The following Failte Ireland article

[broken link removed]

finds that wage rates make up 25% of the cost of a meal (Section 4.1.2) and that in section 5.1.2 the mimimum wage is being used as "...a platform on top of which catering and hotel JLC rates (sic can) continuously extend." Now, whether using the minimum rates in this way is correct or not or applicable to the restaurant or not is not the issue...they are and by reducing the minimum wage, labour costs in restarants would fall. This would help save so many of them closing.


I would also like to add that my post was providing an addendum to Purple's post so perhaps you should respond to his question out of fairness?
 
Complainer said:
I'll repeat the question - maybe instead of repeating the tired old mantras of the defunct PDs, you could give some kinds of examples of the kinds of business and industries that will create new jobs (not displace existing jobs) by offering wages below the current minimum wage level?
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Cutting the minimum wage without cutting wage levels in general will have little impact on our competitiveness problems.
The minimum wage level is the point at which the wage graph starts. If by lowering it all wages can drop then it will help. If it just makes the graph steeper then it will be of little use.

Everyone is overpaid in this country but when you look at comparative wage levels in other Western European countries the real disparity is with lower paid jobs. This is the case in both the public and private sectors.
This also holds true when it comes to direct taxation; the lower paid (€35’000) are taxed vastly less than their counterparts in most of the rest of Europe whereas the well paid (€70’000) are taxed slightly less than their counterparts.
 
Firefly said:
It's as much a question of retaining employment as creating employment in this economy and the restaurant business would be an obvious sector.
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I see. So as I suspected, the plan is displace existing minimum wage jobs in service industries with even lower paid jobs, and hope that this is somehow going to lead us out of recession.

I think not.
 
Complainer said:
I see. So as I suspected, the plan is displace existing minimum wage jobs in service industries with even lower paid jobs, and hope that this is somehow going to lead us out of recession.

I think not.
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This would be part of the solution yes. Lower wages will make Ireland competitive. Perhaps you might answer this question already asked...."If businesses can offer their services at lower prices they will win more international business.....Do you think it is otherwise?"
 
Firefly said:
This would be part of the solution yes.
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Good to get some clarity that this not about creating new jobs, but is in fact about lowering wages in existing jobs.

Firefly said:
Lower wages will make Ireland competitive. Perhaps you might answer this question already asked...."If businesses can offer their services at lower prices they will win more international business.....Do you think it is otherwise?"
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As far as I can see, it is a false premise. What kinds of businesses and organisations who operate in the sub-minimum wage sector will be competing for international business?
 
Complainer said:
Good to get some clarity that this not about creating new jobs, but is in fact about lowering wages in existing jobs.


As far as I can see, it is a false premise. What kinds of businesses and organisations who operate in the sub-minimum wage sector will be competing for international business?
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Dell?
 
Complainer said:
What kinds of businesses and organisations who operate in the sub-minimum wage sector will be competing for international business?
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None in this country but that's not the point and you know it. No amount of Strawman arguements will deflect from that.

As you are well aware the issue is lowering wages in general.
In order to do so the floor from which wages start has to be lowered. In all of the socialist utopias’ around the world where everyone earns the same this isn't a factor but alas we are not North Korea.
In the Capitalist West the proletariat are not yet enlightened enough and want to get paid more if they are more skilled and work harder than their neighbour. Alas we are part of that evil and flawed system.
Given these limitations my point above is valid.
 
No it's not. Dell would have moved anyway unless you wanted Dell to pay Irish workers the same wage as people earn in Poland. Do you really expect Ireland to compete with Eastern Europe and Asia when it comes to labour costs in manufacturing? The minimum wage should be scrapped but so should salary caps. Both are ridiculous. However, thinking it is a big problem economically is wrong. Even the IMF didn't care. They cared about flexibility in pay rates. Not the actual pay rates.
 
Gekko said:
Precisely.

Dell is a good example of Ireland's ridiculously high minimum wage driving business elsewhere.
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The minimum wage has nothing to do with Dell's pay rates.


What level of cut in Irish wages would you think is necessary before Dell Ireland will compete with Dell Poland?
 
Cutting the minimum wage is only one element of any potential restoration of our competitiveness.

All costs have to be looked at. Utilities, rent, rates, compliance fees, professional fees...everything.

But in my honest opinion, the minimum wage is far too high and we have to start somewhere so let's cut it.
 
Purple said:
None in this country but that's not the point and you know it. No amount of Strawman arguements will deflect from that.

As you are well aware the issue is lowering wages in general.
In order to do so the floor from which wages start has to be lowered. In all of the socialist utopias’ around the world where everyone earns the same this isn't a factor but alas we are not North Korea.
In the Capitalist West the proletariat are not yet enlightened enough and want to get paid more if they are more skilled and work harder than their neighbour. Alas we are part of that evil and flawed system.
Given these limitations my point above is valid.
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I agree that the issue is lowering wages in general, but pulling the support from under families most at risk is draconian.
With 85% of people still in gainful employment there is not huge downward pressure on prices in the economy overall.

Those who did drop prices last year, for example window suppliers and insulation installers, have recently put them up 20%.
This is because the anticipated orders from retrofits did not materialize and they need higher margins on sales to compensate.

If social welfare support is cut again facing into a third hard winter and another tough budget, don't be surprised if you see rioting on the streets of Dublin in the autumn.
All the pseudo-Progressive Democrats employers can then wander off to their retirement in their pads in the Cayman Islands.

The rest of us realize we have to work together to get our of this mess, not cut the legs off each other.

ONQ.
 
Gekko said:
Cutting the minimum wage is only one element of any potential restoration of our competitiveness.

All costs have to be looked at. Utilities, rent, rates, compliance fees, professional fees...everything.

But in my honest opinion, the minimum wage is far too high and we have to start somewhere so let's cut it.
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Easy to point the finger, and totally irrelevant to the recovery.

Equally obvious to see that you're not working and living in Dublin on the minimum wage.

ONQ.
 
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