New solar PV and battery grant launched today

MrEarl

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,725
That will take a hell of a long time though.... are new builds even forced to install (I doubt it) ?

If we look at the bigger picture, the government really needs to get it's act together here. The obvious thing to do, is take some more financial pain now to incentivise people to install immediately. Sure, it'll cost the exchequer now, but might save the nation a lot more in the long run.
 

Leo

Moderator
Messages
10,086
are new builds even forced to install (I doubt it) ?
Yeah, under the current regs they must have an element of renewable.

In terms of the bigger picture though, too much grid-connected solar is problematic in terms of maximum generation coinciding with the lowest demand. That's where the requirement for local batter integration comes into play. I just wonder if all the costs of issuing administering lots of small scale projects might be more effectively spent.
 

jimmyging

New Member
Messages
7
...and very simply, that's the reason that there will be so little take up.
I'm not in the industry but curious who's quoting 10k for a 6kW system with 2.4kWh battery.

I'm not interested in installing though, they payback is still too long to make sense.
If you are looking at Seai calculator for payback period that is outdated . If you are interested in real life instances of payback on this have a look over on boards.ie renewable energies thread .
 

Leo

Moderator
Messages
10,086
If you are looking at Seai calculator for payback period that is outdated . If you are interested in real life instances of payback on this have a look over on boards.ie renewable energies thread .
I'm not, but do you want to clarify what is wrong with their figures?

You still can't name the installers offering a 6kW system with battery for €10k???
 

Laughahalla

Frequent Poster
Messages
96
SEAI: On average, a solar PV system can save between €200-€300 per year on your domestic electricity bill

If the system costs 9K to install, that's a 30 year payback period. No thanks.
Where is the 9k figure coming from?

I have a 4.2kw solar PV array with 4.8kwh litium battery. Net of grant it cost me 6k.
I reckon at current usage I'll use about 1300 kwh max from the grid in a full 12 month. That's a bill of less than €400 per annum.

Electricity prices generally rise 5% per year too so solar PV makes sense if you have cash sitting in the bank earning almost zero interest.

People put a lot of emphasis on pay back. What's the payback on your car , a new kitchen or new whatever. At least solar PV helps reduce monthly bills for electricity and can also heat your water with excess .
 
Last edited:

jimmyging

New Member
Messages
7
Where is the 9k figure coming from?

I have a 4.2kw solar PV array with 4.8kwh litium battery. Net of grant it cost me 6k.
I reckon at current usage I'll use about 1300 kwh max from the grid in a full 12 month. That's a bill of less than €400 per annum.

Electricity prices generally rise 5% per year too so solar PV makes sense if you have cash sitting in the bank earning almost zero interest.


I agree with this given the soundings given out by government already about carbon tax increases in the next budget we can say that 5% annual energy price rises would probably be even on the conservative end of it .

People put a lot of emphasis on pay back. What's the payback on your car , a new kitchen or new whatever. At least solar PV helps reduce monthly bills for electricity and can also heat your water with excess .
And also the price of PV panels is continually decreasing as well .
 

newtothis

Frequent Poster
Messages
553
People put a lot of emphasis on pay back. What's the payback on your car , a new kitchen or new whatever.
That's because people buy things like cars and kitchens for reasons other than utility. It's hard to think of a more commodity item than electricity. Just about the only attribute it has to distinguish itself is price, which is the reason for the focus on it.

If you look at payback periods, in very rough terms a solar/battery setup currently has a payback period of about 10 years. One way of thinking is to ask yourself “would I pre-purchase 10 years’ worth of electricity?" Of course, it’s not as simple as that, as at the end of those 10 years the system will hopefully still work (though not at its original capacity) and will continue to provide electricity at no further cost. There’s also the uncertainty about the future price of grid-supplied electricity.

You’ve basically the following choices:

- Keep using grid power, with uncertainty over its future price (it’s unlikely to get cheaper as any fall in fuel prices will probably be offset by carbon taxes).

- Pay up front for about 10-years’ worth of electricity by purchasing solar/battery.

- Borrow to do the same, extending the payback period to cover the interest. This only really makes sense as an attempt to fix the price you’re paying.

A key part of the decision is whether you are likely to be living in the same house for the next 10 years or more.

The general conclusion seems to be that it is highly marginal from a strictly financial point of view, and probably not worth it given the disruption of the install.

However, one factor that does come into it gets back to my initial comment about how much of a commodity electricity is. In times gone by, price was just about the only consideration. However, given current concerns about damage to the planet, a second consideration is how the electricity is generated: until all grid power is generated from renewable sources, do you want to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem?

As with EVs, the technology is still pretty much in the “early adopter” phase, but defitely on the way to the mainstream: the arguments for it are all trending in the right direction.
 

tomwa

Registered User
Messages
16
Just a few points to help the discussion.

PVWatts is a US Government built site that also covers Ireland. Pop in your location and proposed system stats and it will use historical weather data from your nearest weather station to estimate annual solar PV production:
https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

I'd advise anyone considering solar and/or a home battery to install a home energy meter with online stats like an OWL ( http://www.theowl.com/index.php/energy-monitors/remote-monitoring/intuition-e/ ) or Smappee ( https://www.smappee.com/uk/home-energy-monitor ) first.
Get at least a month of data. See what the impact of switching to a nightsaver tariff may be, look at your consumption during peak daylight hours and compare to the hourly average production numbers you get from PVWatts.

Some definitions:
kWp - kilowatt (peak) - This is usually a stated spec on PV panels/arrays and is the peak power production number under ideal lab conditions.
kWh - kilowatt-hour - this is a unit of energy equivalent to the energy a constant 1kW load would use in an hour. This is what your units on your electricity bill represent and the capacity of a battery is measured in.
kW - kilowatt - this is a unit of instantaneous electrical power. As an example a standard household ESB connection is rated for around 12kW, if you powered on twenty 1kW appliances at the same time you'd blow your main ESB fuse.

A home battery system will have three primary metrics.
Capacity - which is measured in kWh - there is also sometimes a difference between the nameplate capacity and the usable capacity, though normal practice is to only state the usable capacity.
Power output (sustained) - measured in kW - this is the highest sustained load the battery can support. This is a spec of the inverter, which in some installations is built-in to the battery and in others is your solar inverter (which may have a different rated output for power from the battery to power from solar)
Power output (peak) - measured in kW - this is the highest peak load the battery can support, usually for a period of time measured in seconds (often important to allow for loads like refrigerators which have spikes in load when first powered up)

If you turn on appliances exceeding the kW power output the battery can supply the remainder needs to be supplied from the grid or any remaining solar power.

Some examples:
Tesla Powerwall 2. It's usable capacity is 13.5kWh (enough to support a 1kW load for 13.5 hours). It has a built-in inverter with a sustained power output of 5kW and a peak of 7kW (for up to 10 seconds).
SonnenBatterie Eco. It's usable capacity is 5kWh (enough to support a 1kW load for 5 hours). It has a built-in inverter with a sustained power output of 2kW and a peak of 3.3kW (for up to 10 seconds).
LG Resu 10H. It's nameplate capacity is 9.8kWh, but usable is 9.3kWh (enough to support a 1kW load for 9.3 hours). It has no built-in inverter. A typical inverter used with this system would be a 5kW rated model. However while the inverter may support 5kW of power from solar... it may only support only 3kW of power from the battery.

Lithium is not a rare material... it's also non-toxic, common (we even have quite a lot of lithium carbonate in Ireland), relatively clean to extract vs other materials and is usually only 2-3% of the battery by weight. It's a Lithium battery because lithium is the active component...not because it's a large portion of the material used to make up the cell. For most home storage batteries aluminium is actually the largest constituent material by weight followed by graphite.
 

yildun

Registered User
Messages
17
hi Here is a Current quote for a PV Install incl VAT i received this month

2kW Solar PV + hot water starts at about €3,500 after the grant.
4kW Solar PV + 2.4kWh Battery storage at about €4,500 after the grant.
6kW Solar PV + 4.8kWh Battery storage at about €6,500 after the grant.


I have also received quotes in excess of 10k for the 4KW system and over5k
for a 2.4 non hybred inverter and including diverter

thanks
 

yildun

Registered User
Messages
17
here as promised is the quote The Contact for the company is Ciaran easy guy to deal with I have no personal or otherwise interest in this companyThey are SEAI approved the quote is 200e aprox cheaper if Longi PVs are used instead of Peimar

Terms seem to be 50 percent up front then the rest when finished

Dont forget the BER 160e I also see its 5k Solis not 3.8 as I said in last msg

I also needed some extra electrical work on my Junction Box which is included on the Invoice

after Grant I will pay 4700.00e for his 4kw system

Eco Horizon LTD
Derrough,
Mountrath,
Co. Laois,
Ireland.
Vat No: 3360173WH
Thank you for your business.
Sincerely yours,
Ciaran kells
Energy Systems Engineer - B.Sc B.Eng
Eco Horizon LTD


Date: 30/06/19
Invoice Number: 718a
Terms: To be decided
Description Quantity Unit Price Cost
Electrical Work 2 € 375.00 € 750.00
Electrical AC equipment 1 € 562.50 € 562.50
Roof Installation 2 € 375.00 € 750.00
RHL + Base and screws 28 € 9.24 € 258.65
3.3m rail 12 € 15.00 € 180.00
rail connector 8 € 2.69 € 21.50
end clamp 8 € 2.90 € 23.20
mid clamp 20 € 1.69 € 33.75
peimar OS300M 14 € 135.00 € 1,890.00
Solis 5K hybrid 1 € 1,336.25 € 1,336.25
Battery (pylon tech) 1 € 931.25 € 931.25
Battery Cabinet and protection 1 € 125.00 € 125.00
Delivery and logistics 1 € 375.00 € 375.00
Solis data stick 1 € 43.75 € 43.75
Meter 1 € 21.25 € 21.25
Rapid shut off 1 € 187.50 € 187.50
Subtotal € 7,489.60
Tax 13.50% € 1,011.10
Total € 8,500.70
Seai Grant (3,800) € 4,700.70
 

Palerider

Frequent Poster
Messages
1,383
Very helpful, is there no diverter to immersion in that ?

And curious if your battery is a little small for storage, 2.4 kWh ?, you have over 4kwh on the roof.

How much is the extra work on your junction box, not sure about that.

The itemised invoice is very transparent, nice to see that.
 

yildun

Registered User
Messages
17
no diverter I might add an extra battery at a later date and I agree It may be a bit small at 2.4KW however the battery case can take a few more batteries and I prefer it to the diverter also It gets the extra 1K grant and hybrid inverter rather than standard inverter either way over 3KW you have to get a Battery according to SEAI and I can all ways switch on the Immersion if its sunny! I feel that they will have to start paying for the extra unused KWs that go back to the Grid and talks have all ready started on a feed in tariff so batteries for on grid system might be pointless

A micro-generation scheme is expected to be launched before the end of the year and a permanent support scheme for photovoltaic (PV) power which would allow all homeowners who have solar panels to sell their excess electricity will be launched by 2021 Irish Mirror

Junction box is about 200e mine is an old one The full price seems a nice balance between the Grant and the amount you finally pay out in my case 4700e I have quotes for similar systems that are in the region of 10K plus

thanks
 

Leo

Moderator
Messages
10,086
I feel that they will have to start paying for the extra unused KWs that go back to the Grid and talks have all ready started on a feed in tariff so batteries for on grid system might be pointless
You can be 100% certain that any feed-in-tariff will be considerably less than the final per-unit cost to you. Other countries have cut back on or stopped tariffs for PV due to grid management issues around over-supply in mid-afternoon., we'd have a long way to go before it's an issue here, but feed in tariffs should be looked on as a bonus, and not counted on to justify a long pay back period.
 

yildun

Registered User
Messages
17
feed in tariffs are expected to be about 5 to 7c if it happens and indeed the pay back is longterm even if the lowest unit cost increases from 15.4c over the next few years to 19 or 21 c or higher it could still take 15 plus years to break even on the other hand investing 5k in a 4KW solar sytsem will give you a better return than investing 5k in a savings account at 2.5pc PA The real bonus is going a bit greener
 

Alkers86

Registered User
Messages
23
I agree It may be a bit small at 2.4KW
Absolutely get the smallest battery you can find to start with when getting the initial installation through the SEAI scheme. The grant is €1,000 regardless of size (above 1kWh I think) as well as unlocking the remaining grant for extra panels. I don't think that adding an extra battery with add up at all but at least you can do the maths on this quite accurately once the system is up and running. Be sure and change to a night meter once the system installed. You would be hoping to fully deplete your battery just before the night rate kicks in, even in the depths of winter.

Using the battery stored capacity when you could be availing of the night rate is likely for you to be making a loss on the cost of the battery.
 

Leo

Moderator
Messages
10,086
Be sure and change to a night meter once the system installed.
Only do this if you can time a significant portion (25%+ of typical household consumption) of your electricity use during the night rate period - 11pm to 8am GMT. Otherwise it will cost you more through increased day rates and standing charges.
 

Alkers86

Registered User
Messages
23
Only do this if you can time a significant portion (25%+ of typical household consumption) of your electricity use during the night rate period - 11pm to 8am GMT. Otherwise it will cost you more through increased day rates and standing charges.
Which nearly everyone would have once they have the solar PV installed?
 
Top