New Irish citizenship and Domicile

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Henning G

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Hello,

I have been living in Ireland for a long time, moved from Germany in the mid 90s. I have house, wife, family, job, social activities all in Ireland. A recent law was passed in Germany that now allows for dual citizenship. I was thinking of applying for an Irish passport.

The main reason being is that it will be easier for me to travel to the UK , I do travel a lot for work etc. and on the other hand it would be no harm having two passports I believe.

I wonder though if this will make me Irish domiciled or in the “grey” area. I have some tax benefit now being non Irish domiciled. Despite all the years in Ireland I travel back to Germany a couple of times a year. I have an inherited property there which I rent out and pay the local taxes as well as another property at disposal that I use for me and my family when we go to Germany. I spend roughly a month and half in Germany every year, visit friends and relatives. I bought this latter property in my younger days before I moved to Ireland and always retained it. My long term plan, once I stop working and kids are out of the house is to spend more time in Germany than Ireland.

What are you views on this ? Will I still be able to retain my non domiciled status or can that be challenged ?

Thanks

Henning
 
Check this out:


Quote from above link :
"You must intend to reside in Ireland after you become a citizen"

A non domiciled status and an intention to reside in Ireland exclude each other. You are either "in"- means your home is Ireland with all rights, duties and responsibilities- or you are out- means your loyalty is with the fatherland- and so are your tax duties!
You cannot have it both ways!
 
Forumuser said:
Quote from above link :
"You must intend to reside in Ireland after you become a citizen"
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This is both unenforceable and unenforced! You’re perfectly entitled to Irish citizenship if you want it.

I am far from an expert but I know that domicile is a tricky concept with no set formula and is taken on the totality of the circumstances. Having Irish citizenship would tip the scales toward Ireland for any assessment of where your domicile is.

Finally, you can renounce Irish citizenship down the line if it’s working against you
 
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Henning G said:
Will I still be able to retain my non domiciled status
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Henning G said:
I have been living in Ireland for a long time, moved from Germany in the mid 90s. I have house, wife, family, job, social activities all in Ireland.
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I would wonder if your current (?) (self determined?) non-domicile status is actually sound?
www.mhc.ie

Domicile Meaning & Definition

Looking for information about the term Domicile? Visit this page to find the definition and a detailed explanation to fully understand the term.
www.mhc.ie www.mhc.ie
In legal terms, domicile is the place where a person has a fixed and permanent home and to which, where the person is absent from that place, they have the intention of returning.

Domicile extends beyond the simple notion of a place of residence and signifies living in a country with the intent to remain there permanently. It denotes a permanent legal residence where one has the most significant connections, such as property ownership, voting registration, and family ties. In contrast, the concept of residence simply refers to where a person lives, either temporarily or permanently.
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As I say, I suspect that you need professional/expert advice on this especially if you are/have been making tax or other significant decisions based on assumptions (?) about your non-domicile status.

Sometimes poster @Marc might be worth checking out as he seems to have extensive expertise in cross jurisdictional issues such as this.
 
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30 years in Ireland, wife, kids, house. Are you already not well into the grey area? Have you had legal advice on this?

Not an expert (did research it a lot years ago) but I imagine citizenship would be case closed?
 
It’s a long time ago but hubby got opinion on domicile in Ireland when we moved here, I’m a local, he’s not. Tax expert* view was pretty definitive after a kid, a mortgage and a job and a decade, said we’d struggle to persuade a judge otherwise.

He got citizenship 18 years after that!

* Big 4 overseas personal tax department
 
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Thanks for the replies. I will take some tax advise. In reality I did take some in relation to my domicile many many years ago when I was still single, renting and had no family. The tax adviser told me back then that it's very difficult to shed your domicile of origin and aquire a new one. You need to completely severe the links with your original country. If you have properties in your original country, passport, you vote in the elections, travel there a few times are year, pay taxes there and plan to move back at a specific point in time, these are strong links that would make you non domiciled in Ireland. Anyway things may have changed in the meantime so I will get some new advise as it may not be worth getting Irish citizenship...
 
I'm not a legal or tax expert either, but just to balance some of the advice given here, intending to reside in Ireland, even for a long period is different to changing your domicile. My way of thinking about domicile has always been where you are born and that you intend to eventually return (to die there essentially), with periods however long in the interim not removing that domicile (unless it somehow removed that possibility of returning). With properties in your country of domicile I think you would have a strong case that you plan on returning to spend your last days there. As a counter example, imagine a US citizen acquiring naturalised Irish citizenship to try avoid paying US taxes on worldwide income, I think they would have to keep US domicile - again not expert opinion!
 
faketales said:
Aren’t US tax requirements based on citizenship not domicile.
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Looks like it alright, but getting Irish citizenship does not remove the US citizenship or the tax on worldwide income due there, so it still works as an example where adding Irish nationality wouldn't affect US tax status.
 
Henning G said:
Thanks for the replies. I will take some tax advise. In reality I did take some in relation to my domicile many many years ago when I was still single, renting and had no family. The tax adviser told me back then that it's very difficult to shed your domicile of origin and aquire a new one. You need to completely severe the links with your original country. If you have properties in your original country, passport, you vote in the elections, travel there a few times are year, pay taxes there and plan to move back at a specific point in time, these are strong links that would make you non domiciled in Ireland. Anyway things may have changed in the meantime so I will get some new advise as it may not be worth getting Irish citizenship...
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As Strangelove stated Domicile is a very tricky concept. Not to be confused with tax residence or indeed residence, and even more confusing as tax rules differ depending on each countries own rules. Really there is no expert that can give you a definitive answer. But the advice you were given is sound to me based on my knowledge of this area. It is indeed exceedingly difficult to shed your domicile of origin.

This came up as an issue for us as my husband needed to keep his Irish domicile for tax purposes when it really mattered. About 15 years into it my husbands employer were investigated by our resident EU countries tax authorities. I attended a meeting on it as I manage our taxes etc. This was with one of the big 4. Who had to check each employees status and make the case to the tax authorities.

In order to retain my husband's Irish domicile we were able to show strong solid links to Ireland, some examples, not all of which pertain to us are property ownership, links to professional organisations, life insurance, house insurance, children in Ireland, children at boarding school in Ireland. Also the purchase of a grave plot and making prior burial arrangements in Germany ! The latter demonstrate the nebulous concept of intention to move back ......

We sufficiently demonstrated the correct status (I had read everything originally when we moved abroad) and our case was deemed acceptable. Others who lost out were those who sold their Irish property and severed all links.

The only thing that may have changed since your original advice are court cases. I'm not aware of anything significant on this in the last two decades.
 
The interesting thing is that the concept of Domicile in the countries outside of the "old British world" is very different. It's not based on intentions but facts. Eg, in most countries in Europe your "domicile" has nothing to do with where you were born, where your father was born and if one day your intention is to move back to the country where you were born and where you still own a few assest like a house. Your domicile is where you have most economic interests and where your family and social ties are stronger. It can change from one year to another. I'm a french national and because like the OP I live and work in Ireland and importantly my family is here and my main income is generated in Ireland, the french system considers me domiciled in Ireland at the same time when the Irish system will probably consider me domiciled in France because I own a few assets in France was born in France by French parents, visit France frequently and express the intention of moving back to France at some stage even if I live in Ireland , work in Ireland and my family is in Ireland. If I rooted up my family and move to Spain to work next year, the french system would consider me domiciled in Spain. So the two domiciled definitions are very different and clash, they aren't the same thing.
 
I don't think it really matters when the concept of domicile means different things in different jurisdictions. At the end of the day what really matters is your tax residency and how it is determined. Most countries have laws based on Article 4 of the OECD Model Tax Convention that provides a comprehensive framework for defining and establishing residency for tax purposes and are agreed by the tie breaker rules defined in that article. The domicile in these countries, (unlike Ireland, UK, Malta, etc), is one of the various elements that helps to determine if you could be considered tax resident in that particular country or not (domicile is defined as the country where, in a particular year, you have your main economic interests and personal connections, with the personal connections having a higher weight over the economic interests). The other main element is if you spend more than 183 days in that particular country. So if I lived in Ireland, my main income were in Ireland by an Irish employer but my family which let's say I visit a few times a year, lives in France, the french tax system would very likely consider me domiciled in France even if I live and work in Ireland for more than 183 days/year and expect me to declare all my foreign income including my Paye Irish income in France (availing of tax credits of course) simply because my main family connections are still in France and this single element defined locally as "domicile" makes me tax resident there. So i become dual tax resident since I live and work in Ireland for most part of the year and also Ireland considers me tax resident in Ireland, it doesn't matter where my family lives. If my family lives in Ireland then the french system, would not consider me tax resident in France since according to its internal laws based on the OECD model my domicile is not in France: my family lives with me in Ireland (could be anywhere else) and I'm in Ireland for more than 183 days/year, live and work here. The Irish domicile concept is completely different, and not based on the OECD model: it doesn't have any weight in determining your Irish tax residency, but how you are taxed. The only element that makes you tax resident in Ireland are how many days you live in Ireland. Once I have determined that my tax residency is not in France according to the internal french law, but only in Ireland, even if Ireland due to the internal law based on ancient rules considers me non domiciled in Ireland, still I'm tax resident in Ireland and not tax resident in France and follow the local Irish rules.
 
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Basic question: how do you find out whether Revenue considers you domiciled or not? There doesn't seem to be anything pertaining to it when I log into my payee anytime account. Thanks!
 

What is domicile and the domicile levy?

This page provides an overview of domicile status
www.revenue.ie www.revenue.ie

You are asked if you are resident and domiciled in Ireland in the Personal Details section when you submit a PAYE Income Tax Return.
 

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