Does it in practice deter anyone? Is there anyone who decided "We need a new bedroom for the kids but decided against it because of the building regulations"?
New houses should not have to meet high BER requirements
- Thread starter Steven Barrett
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It does if they can't afford it due to the extra cost of improving the BER.
Same question again. Does it actually happen? Is there any anecdotal evidence of people shelving plans due to the requirement?
The Horseman
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The building of a property outside the major urban areas is achievable for a relatively modest figure. Land and labour is notably less expensive outside of the urban areas.
The development levies are used to fund a host of council public services related to property. Some of those who pay levies gain more from them than others.
My levies (living in Dublin) has no doubt subsidised the support of public lighting for example in areas where the levies are not sufficient to cover them.
I've no idea but it's reasonable to think that cost influences purchasing decisions.
@Leo's point above is the real issue though; with the improvement in materials and manufacturing methods how on earth is it so much more expensive to build a house now than it was 20 years ago?
newirishman
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From my (layman) observations of the Irish Building Industry, whatever improvements in materials and manufacturing methods happened since say the 1980ies have yet to make it into the handbook for Irish Builders.
There is zero reason or motivation for the building industry to make housing cheaper in Ireland. Zero.
NoRegretsCoyote
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Energy efficiency requirements are onerous for new builds and add to cost. But houses last for a very long time in Ireland so it makes sense to get it right at the start.
For me the main policy problem is not build quality but where and how much developers can build. I've rarely seen a new development where another 25% floor space couldn't have gone in through some combination of building higher or less garden space.
Land is also very inefficiently used. A school near my parents' house has sold off land parcels but by bit over the last half century, the fourth is now being developed. Each development has its own access roads and is completely inaccessible from the others. This has led to far more road space than actually needed for the volume of dwellings.
For me the main policy problem is not build quality but where and how much developers can build. I've rarely seen a new development where another 25% floor space couldn't have gone in through some combination of building higher or less garden space.
Land is also very inefficiently used. A school near my parents' house has sold off land parcels but by bit over the last half century, the fourth is now being developed. Each development has its own access roads and is completely inaccessible from the others. This has led to far more road space than actually needed for the volume of dwellings.
Clueless Clive
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Houses wont last as long asthey did once the full extent of mica pyrrhite comes out.
a lot of apartments in Dublin will have to come down
a lot of apartments in Dublin will have to come down
What apartments were built with contaminated blocks?
When the cores of these are cast on-site and steel reinforced, why would they have to come down?
Yeah, no way they meet the structural loading requirements for that purpose. I was just wondering what Clive knew about developments that will need to come down
I wond
I can't help but wonder if your builder is altruistic or if he wants to build more houses at a lower cost so he can maximise the return on the land investment he's made. What's better for him, 20 houses on a plot sold for €500k or 40 smaller and lower rated houses sold @ €400k.?
My first house was a badly built timber frame new build. We learnt quickly that the neighbours were Abba fans and that he used to belt his girlfriend after a few beers. How?, because we could hear them easily through the dividing wall that we were afraid to even hammer a nail into in case it damaged it. The garden was small and fine for me and my wife, totally unsuitable once kids, pets etc came along, far too small.
2 houses later, and in my forever (hopefully) home, a 1970's cavity block build I can recall looking at other new builds where the 5th "bedroom" was too small to put a bed. I saw apartments being built in Dublin during the tiger that even to my laymans eyes, the blockwork was appaling. Plaster has covered a lot of issues.
There is an arguement for cheaper, starter homes and perhaps some people starting out have unrealistic expectations. However and forgive me for lumping all builders into the one bucket but having seeing, first and second hand, the appalling builds Irish builders have erected over the last 25 years. I'd take anything they say with a large pinch of salt.
I can't help but wonder if your builder is altruistic or if he wants to build more houses at a lower cost so he can maximise the return on the land investment he's made. What's better for him, 20 houses on a plot sold for €500k or 40 smaller and lower rated houses sold @ €400k.?
My first house was a badly built timber frame new build. We learnt quickly that the neighbours were Abba fans and that he used to belt his girlfriend after a few beers. How?, because we could hear them easily through the dividing wall that we were afraid to even hammer a nail into in case it damaged it. The garden was small and fine for me and my wife, totally unsuitable once kids, pets etc came along, far too small.
2 houses later, and in my forever (hopefully) home, a 1970's cavity block build I can recall looking at other new builds where the 5th "bedroom" was too small to put a bed. I saw apartments being built in Dublin during the tiger that even to my laymans eyes, the blockwork was appaling. Plaster has covered a lot of issues.
There is an arguement for cheaper, starter homes and perhaps some people starting out have unrealistic expectations. However and forgive me for lumping all builders into the one bucket but having seeing, first and second hand, the appalling builds Irish builders have erected over the last 25 years. I'd take anything they say with a large pinch of salt.
T McGibney
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What land investment? He's a builder. If he was a developer, Steven would presumably have described him as such.
What we need are well built timber frames houses. They'll last 100 years, can be mainly pre-fabricated in a factory so will be of a much higher quality, are considerably cheaper, have a much lower carbon footprint and can be produced faster. Unfortunately our existing building regulations and our incompetent construction sector mitigate against this. If builders were as good at building as they are at moaning we'd have no shortage of housing.
Yes, there was a systematic failure by the State to enforce regulations and by the so called professionals to ensure that standards were met. Even a desk-top audit would have shown that fire safety standards were not being met.
Thankfully most builders are honest people and did what they were meant to do, despite the failures of the State.
Clueless Clive
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As I understand it, quite a significant number of concrete slabs (floor / ceiling between stories etc) were made by cassidys and sent to Dublin. For years.Yeah, no way they meet the structural loading requirements for that purpose. I was just wondering what Clive knew about developments that will need to come down
And your point is?
Fully agreed - you are effectively demanding that the FTB also second guesses the potential new technologies in the market and installs best in class now, without having choices later on if a better technology comes along. FTBs are effectively paying 45k extra for what they would get a 50% SEAI grant for if they did on an older home with a cheaper price.
I recall that 15 years ago pellet burners were the "in" thing, and most of my parents neighbours have switched over to natural gas from oil.
Where do you think the builders have gone who were responsible for poor quality builds in the first place? Its only 10 years later in many cases, and lots of the contractors responsible for poor workmanship then will still be in business now, and get to benefit a second time with the scale of work out there. The developer would have used sub contracted labour rather than in house in many cases, and people will have moved around. McFeely etc didn't go around building homes personally - its the contractors who carried out poor quality work, and site foremen who were not doing their jobs, compounded by self-certification which again would have been down to what were likely to be contracted engineers. And all topped off by the state leaving them to get on with it before 2014, when self certification ended.
Which is largely because we still haven't professionalised our construction workforce to the point that you can no longer leave school at 15, do a safe pass and rise through the ranks. Doing so would eliminate the cheap labour element while also improving standards, but at significant cost, as then you are trying to only hire professionally trained staff at entry level, but 55 year old Jimmy the ex brickie who left school at 15 to work on city building sites is now senior manager on account of "experience" and hasn't a bulls notion what all this new stuff is, but can talk the talk - and him, take a pay cut, with all his "experience"?
We also have one of the largest concrete businesses here in the world, determined to keep our house building methods at somewhere around 1885.
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