New Group: For PTSB customers sold to Mars Capital

[MaryBr]

New Group Formed for PTSB customers recently sold to Mars Capital.
Objective:
To form a large group:
To achieve the same discounted rate for loans as Mars Capital:
To seek legal representation for large group:
Please message me if interested in joining this group to take objective forward legally.
Thank you
Mary Broadbery

 

[Brendan Burgess]

To achieve the same discounted rate for loans as Mars Capital:

What does this mean?

Are you proposing that you buy the loan from Mars at the price they paid ptsb for it?

How much did Mars pay for your loan?

Is it in arrears or negative equity?

In the unlikely event that Mars agreed to give you a discount on repayment of the loan, where would you get the finance?


Brendan

 

[MaryBr]

Brendan,
I have requested from PTSB the relevant sale documentation between PTSB and Mars under the FOI Act. Once I receive it I will know some of the answers to your questions. PTSB is at fault. No not negative equity.
MB

 

[Luternau]

Brendan,
I have requested from PTSB the relevant sale documentation between PTSB and Mars under the FOI Act. Once I receive it I will know some of the answers to your questions. PTSB is at fault. No not negative equity.
MB

I wish you well getting that information from PTSB. The FOI Act does not apply to them. What type of loan you had that was sold, i.e. home or buy to let mortgage , other loan?

PTSB won't care about you...it's just business for them. Even it makes nonsense to you anyone else, that's how PTSB operate.

 

[MaryBr]

I wish you well getting that information from PTSB. The FOI Act does not apply to them. What type of loan you had that was sold, i.e. home or buy to let mortgage , other loan?

PTSB won't care about you...it's just business for them. Even it makes nonsense to you anyone else, that's how PTSB operate.

I suppose my request to PTSB is more of a Data Access Request rather than an FOI. My request has been acknowledged with a phone call today. Tracker mortgage.
MB

 

[Luternau]

Thanks for info
I am surprised they have anymore trackers. They sold 5,170 mostly interest only tracker loans to fund (Pimco) in Sept 2022 for approx €700m. Mybloans were in that package. After transfer they were serviced by Pepper at same terms as PTSB, so it had little impact.
What is your concern over the transfer in general or just that you would like to have been offered the same discount?

 

[AshKhan]

I suppose my request to PTSB is more of a Data Access Request rather than an FOI. My request has been acknowledged with a phone call today. Tracker mortgage.
MB

There is no chance of you getting this info. Borrowers have requested it over the years of loans sales and it is never given out. Borrowers have sued to get it and have lost at every turn.

At the end of the day, the terms of your loan doesn't change once its be transferred. You might lose out on products that banks offer and that funds don't, such as a fixed rate. From my experience, Funds offer a lot more solutions then banks would in how to deal with your debt. EG. Real Settlements, wider range of restructures. Funds are more likely to start and enforce litigation if the borrower is not engaging or is unable to resolve any of the issues.

Also note, Mars Capital and other firms act as Credit Servicing Firms. Other large entities buy the loan books and hire these firms to manage the loans. Very good chance Mars Capital don't have an idea how much was paid by individual loan.

Your best option to deal with Mars Capital is the first week send in a SFS and get your account on a restructure that you can afford and that is sustainable to clear the mortgage by the end of the term. Once that is in place and you stick to it, then you wouldn't hear from them unless the ECB rate changes or you missed a payment.

If that is not possible I would recommend to go to a PIP.

There is no chance that you will get the same discount as whoever bought your loan and in fairness if a borrower had the funds to pay 30% ,40% or 60% of the balance then why were they in arrears in the first place.

 

[MaryBr]

Thanks for info
I am surprised they have anymore trackers. They sold 5,170 mostly interest only tracker loans to fund (Pimco) in Sept 2022 for approx €700m. Mybloans were in that package. After transfer they were serviced by Pepper at same terms as PTSB, so it had little impact.
What is your concern over the transfer in general or just that you would like to have been offered the same discount?

Yes I want to be offered the same discount as Mars. I’m in the unusual situation where I’m in the process of being sale agreed on one property. I want my redemption figure to be discounted equal to Mars. That would be my objective to try at least. Even without knowing the exact discount it can be estimated from
the information already known. It probably will delay any conveyancing but I’m prepared to try. Thanks for comment.
MB

 

[MaryBr]

There is no chance of you getting this info. Borrowers have requested it over the years of loans sales and it is never given out. Borrowers have sued to get it and have lost at every turn.

At the end of the day, the terms of your loan doesn't change once its be transferred. You might lose out on products that banks offer and that funds don't, such as a fixed rate. From my experience, Funds offer a lot more solutions then banks would in how to deal with your debt. EG. Real Settlements, wider range of restructures. Funds are more likely to start and enforce litigation if the borrower is not engaging or is unable to resolve any of the issues.

Also note, Mars Capital and other firms act as Credit Servicing Firms. Other large entities buy the loan books and hire these firms to manage the loans. Very good chance Mars Capital don't have an idea how much was paid by individual loan.

Your best option to deal with Mars Capital is the first week send in a SFS and get your account on a restructure that you can afford and that is sustainable to clear the mortgage by the end of the term. Once that is in place and you stick to it, then you wouldn't hear from them unless the ECB rate changes or you missed a payment.

If that is not possible I would recommend to go to a PIP.

There is no chance that you will get the same discount as whoever bought your loan and in fairness if a borrower had the funds to pay 30% ,40% or 60% of the balance then why were they in arrears in the first place.

Thanks for your comments.
Understand Mars may be more reasonable to deal with than PTSB. I prefer to use the word ‘sold’ rather than transfer - the loans were sold at a significantly discounted rate. Customers should be offered the same rate at least in the first instance irrespective of where they get the funds. That’s their business. I’m currently Sale agreed on a property and want the same reduction on my redemption figure as Mars. I’ll try at least. Agree engaging is key. Thanks for comments.
MB

 

[ClubMan]

I want my redemption figure to be discounted equal to Mars.

Zero chance of this happening in my view and you're most likely wasting your time and risking your sale by spending time on this. As previously mentioned, the sale of your loan to Mars doesn't change your contractual obligations, even if they got your loan at a discount. The process of banks selling loans at a discount in order to clean up their post global financial crisis loans books was authorised and encouraged by the Irish and European Central Banks. You're almost certainly on a hiding to nothing in going down this road.

 

[MaryBr]

Zero chance of this happening in my view and you're most likely wasting your time and risking your sale by spending time on this. As previously mentioned, the sale of your loan to Mars doesn't change your contractual obligations, even if they got your loan at a discount. The process of banks selling loans at a discount in order to clean up their post global financial crisis loans books was authorised and encouraged by the Irish and European Central Banks. You're almost certainly on a hiding to nothing in going down this road.

Thanks for your comments.
MB

 

[AshKhan]

Thanks for your comments.
Understand Mars may be more reasonable to deal with than PTSB. I prefer to use the word ‘sold’ rather than transfer - the loans were sold at a significantly discounted rate. Customers should be offered the same rate at least in the first instance irrespective of where they get the funds. That’s their business. I’m currently Sale agreed on a property and want the same reduction on my redemption figure as Mars. I’ll try at least. Agree engaging is key. Thanks for comments.
MB

I understand the frustration that Mars seem to be making a profit from this.

However, you are in the process of selling the house. If PTSB had not sold your mortgage, you would be in the same position. You would be unlikely to get any discount especially if you were in positive equity.

For example, lets say the house is valued at €400K and the loan is €300K.

Scenario 1 - PTSB does not sell your mortgage. Likely do not give you a discount and you clear the loan and end up with €100K less fees.

Scenario 2 - PTSB sells your mortgage for €200K to Mars Capital. The balance is still €300K and you sell for €400k. In this scenario, PTSB lost a potential €100K, Mars gained €100K and you still come out with €100K less fees.

I understand this example is probably different as you mentioned selling 1 property which sounds like you have at least 2 or more being transferred.

Also remember, the loan may have been sold already but not transferred. This means PTSB while managing your loan for now, most likely do not get to make major decisions on it anymore.

 

[MaryBr]

I understand the frustration that Mars seem to be making a profit from this.

However, you are in the process of selling the house. If PTSB had not sold your mortgage, you would be in the same position. You would be unlikely to get any discount especially if you were in positive equity.

For example, lets say the house is valued at €400K and the loan is €300K.

Scenario 1 - PTSB does not sell your mortgage. Likely do not give you a discount and you clear the loan and end up with €100K less fees.

Scenario 2 - PTSB sells your mortgage for €200K to Mars Capital. The balance is still €300K and you sell for €400k. In this scenario, PTSB lost a potential €100K, Mars gained €100K and you still come out with €100K less fees.

I understand this example is probably different as you mentioned selling 1 property which sounds like you have at least 2 or more being transferred.

Also remember, the loan may have been sold already but not transferred. This means PTSB while managing your loan for now, most likely do not get to make major decisions on it anymore.

Thanks for your comments. It’s very likely any redemption figure will be processed by PTSB. So I will attempt to challenge the redemption figure. I don’t think Mars will be issuing a redemption figure. My understanding is: if the original loan is sold for a reduced amount a new loan is created in doing so. Regarding your example above the new loan balance is 200k not 300k. The new loan balance is outstanding amount owed on that mortgage not original amount.
Thanks for your comments.
MB

 

[ClubMan]

Regarding your example above the new loan balance is 200k not 300k.

Not for the borrower it's not.

1. Alice lends Bob €100 to be repaid €10 p.m.
2. Three months later Bob still owes Alice €70.
3. But Alice suddenly needs ready cash urgently.
4. So she sells the loan to Carol for €50 up front - she's willing to take a €20 hit in order to get ready cash right now.
5. Bob still owes €70 but now payable to Carol (or to Alice who passes it on to Carol herself)
6. Alice's dealings with Carol at step 4 are irrelevant to Bob and don't impact his debt.

 

[AshKhan]

Thanks for your comments. It’s very likely any redemption figure will be processed by PTSB. So I will attempt to challenge the redemption figure. I don’t think Mars will be issuing a redemption figure. My understanding is: if the original loan is sold for a reduced amount a new loan is created in doing so. Regarding your example above the new loan balance is 200k not 300k. The new loan balance is outstanding amount owed on that mortgage not original amount.
Thanks for your comments.
MB

That is not the case at all.

All terms of the loan remain the same including the balance so no new loan is is created.

If it was as in your describing banks wouldn't be able to sell the loans as the discount they sell them is the profit the purchasers make if they can get them settled.

 

[Luternau]

Yes I want to be offered the same discount as Mars. I’m in the unusual situation where I’m in the process of being sale agreed on one property. I want my redemption figure to be discounted equal to Mars. That would be my objective to try at least. Even without knowing the exact discount it can be estimated from
the information already known. It probably will delay any conveyancing but I’m prepared to try. Thanks for comment.
MB

As others have said, you have no chance of getting the same deal or any deal. This solution for distressed home owners or even those not distressed was proposed by many, it came up in Dail etc back when these sales began to happen but was rejected as unworkable for the banks. If I remember correctly, it may also have resulted in tax issues for the beneficiary of the discount (the mortgage holder).

Best to complete the conveyance and move on. The outcome for you will be the same as if the mortgage remained with PTSB.

 

[Luternau]

..... and in fairness if a borrower had the funds to pay 30% ,40% or 60% of the balance then why were they in arrears in the first place.

This is a misconception not correct. Performing loans were also sold by banks, including PTSB.

In the case of PTSB, they sold a lot of performing buy to let interest only trackers mortgages to improve their liquidity/balance sheet.

 

[MaryBr]

This is a misconception not correct. Performing loans were also sold by banks, including PTSB.

In the case of PTSB, they sold a lot of performing buy to let interest only trackers mortgages to improve their liquidity/balance sheet.

Agree. Also the amount PTSB quoted in arrears per account as 71k is also likely incorrect.
Thanks very much for all your comments, I will take them onboard. My objective is still to form a group of similarly affected individuals rather than do nothing. I will still aim to get some type of reduction/deal.
MB

 

[MaryBr]

Not for the borrower it's not.

1. Alice lends Bob €100 to be repaid €10 p.m.
2. Three months later Bob still owes Alice €70.
3. But Alice suddenly needs ready cash urgently.
4. So she sells the loan to Carol for €50 up front - she's willing to take a €20 hit in order to get ready cash right now.
5. Bob still owes €70 but now payable to Carol (or to Alice who passes it on to Carol herself)
6. Alice's dealings with Carol at step 4 are irrelevant to Bob and don't impact his debt.

Re above: What about if Bob also offered Alice €50 to clear the debt?
MB

 

[ClubMan]

Re above: What about if Bob also offered Alice €50 to clear the debt?
MB

Alice has already sold the debt to Carol before Bob heard anything about this.
Alice is out of the picture at this stage (unless she's just collecting the repayments and passing them on to Carol).
Carol won't settle for €50 when she can collect €70 - why would/should she?