Neutrality

[Purple]

I would yes.

I have known many people who lived under a totalitarian dictatorship. My parents in law lived under Nazi occupation for 5 years. My mother in law was a nurse, working in a hospital. Certainly she resented the German occupation, and the fate of the Jewish families in her home village haunted her, these were people she knew, not just people she read about. But during that time she lived her life, restricted though it was, she took care of her grandmother, she met her friends, she did the things people in their early 20s do. The worst thing she personally suffered was lack of food in the winter of 1945.

My father in law worked in the harbour when the war broke out. Unlike his future wife he worked under direct German supervision, with armed soldiers patrolling. He resented that too, but again he lived, and I don't mean that he survived the war I mean that he spent the 5 years living his life. At one stage he was put on a train to be taken to Germany to work. His mother challenged this and he was released. His brother was not so lucky, he spent 15 months as a slave worker in Germany. He survived, returned home and his kids and grand kids are around to tell the tale.

I have a Polish friend whose mother lived under Russian occupation as a child. They had a Russian soldier billeted in their house, he was very young and afraid, terrified that they would kill him in his sleep. He was amazed by how wealthy they were. In fact even by the standards of 1940s Poland they were poor peasants, they had a packed earth floor in their house. But they had chickens and pigs and ate meat daily. That made them rich in his eyes.

And if nobody fought the totalitarian dictatorships their children and grandchildren would still live under them. That is unless your father in law and his brother were eventually worked to death in a slave labour camp. Thankfully enough people are brave enough to fight back and don't sit back and let others die to protect their freedom, like we do here in Ireland.

 

[cremeegg]

No one fought to liberate Poland from the Russians. Lech Walensa's parents lived through Nazi and Russian occupation.

 

[Purple]

No one fought to liberate Poland from the Russians. Lech Walensa's parents lived through Nazi and Russian occupation.

Plenty fought to liberate Poland from Nazi Germany. If they hadn't then Poland, and the rest of Europe, would still be under their control... and we'd have been wipes out as an inferior race... even if we didn't fight back.

 

[cremeegg]

Actually it is not true that no one fought to liberate Poland from the Russians. There was an anti communist struggle into the 1950s. All they suceeded in doing was getting themselves and their neighbours killed.

 

[cremeegg]

Plenty fought to liberate Poland from Nazi Germany. If they hadn't then Poland, and the rest of Europe, would still be under their control... and we'd have been wipes out as an inferior race... even if we didn't fight back.

I am not for a moment disputing the bravery of the Poles who fought against the Nazis. In fact there were units of the Polish army active in Poland right through the war. But they didn't liberate the country and they had no influence on the outcome of the war.

Polish soldiers made a big contribution to the US and UK armies. I still would not want my kids to end up in the mud of some future Monte Casino. Then Churchill sent the survivors back to Stalin. What were they fighting for again.

 

[joe sod]

They had a Russian soldier billeted in their house, he was very young and afraid, terrified that they would kill him in his sleep. He was amazed by how wealthy they were. In fact even by the standards of 1940s Poland they were poor peasants, they had a packed earth floor in their house. But they had chickens and pigs and ate meat daily. That made them rich in his eyes.

thats because the russian soldier had already experienced the food shortages and famines under russian communism, the polish were then just entering enforced communism. By the 1980s Poland had got its full dose of russian communism, with food qeues and shortages, that is why the solidarity movement was in full flow and Poland was fighting to break out of the iron curtain.

We are very naive to think that Europe will always remain democratic and nice, what if a populist leader ala Trump or even a Putin like figure (although Putin is a distinctly russian creation) gets into power in the UK, what if they use the Putin logic for taking control of the whole country again using the pretext of the "British people" in the north as the pretext, the same logic putin used to attack Ukraine. Ireland with a strong military and strong military alliances with europe would make that untenanable, whereas now we have virtually no military so we are open season for any opportunist. I know the above scenario is almost silly but the full scale invasion of Ukraine was not on the radar a decade ago. If the US was to pullm out of NATO for example that would leave Ireland highly exposed

 

[losttheplot]

Cremeegg's approach is why generations of Creme Eggs have avoided the slaughter and massacre every Easter.
Living under a dictator, they could just simply decide to draft you, expel you etc.

 

[Itchy]

I would yes.

I have known many people who lived under a totalitarian dictatorship. My parents in law lived under Nazi occupation for 5 years. My mother in law was a nurse, working in a hospital. Certainly she resented the German occupation, and the fate of the Jewish families in her home village haunted her, these were people she knew, not just people she read about. But during that time she lived her life, restricted though it was, she took care of her grandmother, she met her friends, she did the things people in their early 20s do. The worst thing she personally suffered was lack of food in the winter of 1945.

My father in law worked in the harbour when the war broke out. Unlike his future wife he worked under direct German supervision, with armed soldiers patrolling. He resented that too, but again he lived, and I don't mean that he survived the war I mean that he spent the 5 years living his life. At one stage he was put on a train to be taken to Germany to work. His mother challenged this and he was released. His brother was not so lucky, he spent 15 months as a slave worker in Germany. He survived, returned home and his kids and grand kids are around to tell the tale.

I have a Polish friend whose mother lived under Russian occupation as a child. They had a Russian soldier billeted in their house, he was very young and afraid, terrified that they would kill him in his sleep. He was amazed by how wealthy they were. In fact even by the standards of 1940s Poland they were poor peasants, they had a packed earth floor in their house. But they had chickens and pigs and ate meat daily. That made them rich in his eyes.

 

[Itchy]

So would I rather my kids die on a beach or be forced to learn pro-Russian history at school. No hesitation as far as I'm concerned.

Is your implicit assumption here that those children would be reeducated in Ireland?

UN urges Russia to end forcible transfer of Ukrainian children
https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...cible-transfer-ukrainian-children-2024-02-08/

 

[Purple]

I am not for a moment disputing the bravery of the Poles who fought against the Nazis. In fact there were units of the Polish army active in Poland right through the war. But they didn't liberate the country and they had no influence on the outcome of the war.

Polish soldiers made a big contribution to the US and UK armies. I still would not want my kids to end up in the mud of some future Monte Casino. Then Churchill sent the survivors back to Stalin. What were they fighting for again.

I didn't saw it was Poles who fought. I said people fought (okay men fought) and died to free them. That said the Poles who could did fight did, for example the Polish pilots who wo the Battle of Britain or the 195,000 Polish who fought in the Polish armed forces in the West or Polskie Siły Zbrojne na Zachodzie. That was Polish forces fighting as part of a broader military alliance to liberate their country, something that they could not have achieved on their own.


So do you accept that sometimes men have to fight to protect their freedom and the freedom of their country from tyranny? If so is it that you advocate others fighting and dying on our behalf?

 

[Purple]

Actually it is not true that no one fought to liberate Poland from the Russians. There was an anti communist struggle into the 1950s. All they suceeded in doing was getting themselves and their neighbours killed.

There was a Civil War in Poland after the War, far bigger than our Civil War. The communist forces were utterly brutal and killed and deported tens of thousands of their countrymen. It was a tragedy and a betrayal of the Polish people by their former allies.
Stalin's puppet government committed mass murders of the anti Nazi Polish Resistance fighters who had in turn resisted the Russian invasion but surrendered to the puppet government on the guarantee that they would not be arrested or mistreated. Instead they were tortured then deported or murdered. The Second Katyn was the mass murder of over a thousand such prisoners in 1945 (the first Katyn massacre was the mass murder of almost 22,000 Polish officers by the Russians in 1940).

I wouldn't describe that as people just getting on with their lives.

If only there was some sort of military alliance that they could have joined to formally protect them and obligate their allies to act on their behalf.

 

[cremeegg]

So do you accept that sometimes men have to fight to protect their freedom and the freedom of their country from tyranny? If so is it that you advocate others fighting and dying on our behalf?

No I am encouraging you NOT to fight if Putin lands 20,000 troops in Banna.

If you do lots of people will call you a hero, but they will be mostly people who are glad to repay your suffering with words.

I will say you are a fool. The Fool https://celt.ucc.ie/published/E950004-023.html (scroll down for text)

You will have no say, because you will be dead.

Edited

 

[cremeegg]

There was a Civil War in Poland after the War, far bigger than our Civil War. The communist forces were utterly brutal and killed and deported tens of thousands of their countrymen. It was a tragedy and a betrayal of the Polish people by their former allies.
Stalin's puppet government committed mass murders of the anti Nazi Polish Resistance fighters who had in turn resisted the Russian invasion but surrendered to the puppet government on the guarantee that they would not be arrested or mistreated. Instead they were tortured then deported or murdered. The Second Katyn was the mass murder of over a thousand such prisoners in 1945 (the first Katyn massacre was the mass murder of almost 22,000 Polish officers by the Russians in 1940).

I wouldn't describe that as people just getting on with their lives.

If only there was some sort of military alliance that they could have joined to formally protect them and obligate their allies to act on their behalf.

The vast majority did get on with their lives. There was nothing inherently noble about those that fought communism in Poland after the war. They were willing to fight for their vision, so what. Most people just wanted peace.

 

[cremeegg]

thats because the russian soldier had already experienced the food shortages and famines under russian communism, the polish were then just entering enforced communism. By the 1980s Poland had got its full dose of russian communism, with food qeues and shortages, that is why the solidarity movement was in full flow and Poland was fighting to break out of the iron curtain.

You are using the word 'fighting' here in a very different sense.

Walensa was not a soldier. The number of people killed in the entire era of the Solidarity struggle was as nothing compared to the numbers killed in war.

We are very naive to think that Europe will always remain democratic and nice, what if a populist leader ala Trump or even a Putin like figure (although Putin is a distinctly russian creation) gets into power in the UK, what if they use the Putin logic for taking control of the whole country again using the pretext of the "British people" in the north as the pretext,

I don't think this is impossible at all. Priti Patel was quite explicit about the threat. It is what we should do about it that I am thinking about.

Ireland with a strong military and strong military alliances with europe would make that untenanable,

I think this is both unrealistic and undesirable.

 

[Purple]

No I am encouraging you NOT to fight if Putin lands 20,000 troops in Banna.

If you do lots of people will call you a hero, but they will be mostly people who are glad to repay your suffering with words.

I will say you are a fool. The Fool https://celt.ucc.ie/published/E950004-023.html (scroll down for text)

You will have no say, because you will be dead.

Edited

On that we disagree.
I don’t think it’s desirable to surrender to tyrants.
I do think that freedom and democracy are worth fighting for. I’d fight so that my children and their children were not slaves.
So I’d fight against a totalitarian Russian regime but, for example, I wouldn’t fight against British rule if I lived in Northern Ireland.

 

[odyssey06]

On that we disagree.
I don’t think it’s desirable to surrender to tyrants.
I do think that freedom and democracy are worth fighting for. I’d fight so that my children and their children were not slaves.
So I’d fight against a totalitarian Russian regime but, for example, I wouldn’t fight against British rule if I lived in Northern Ireland.

And let's not forget what Russia did with that 'peace' in Poland. They plundered Eastern Europe as a colony and manpower pool with which to threaten Western Europe and the world. That is Russia's plan for Ukraine too. Look at how it conscripted those in the annexed regions to send as cannon fodder against Ukraine. Ukraine leaving Russia's economic orbit, instead trading with the EU, prospering and forming a bulwark along with Poland against Russian revanchism represents a significant Russian foreign policy defeat.

 

[cremeegg]

They plundered Eastern Europe as a colony and manpower pool with which to threaten Western Europe and the world

There were many issues with the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe during the Cold War, plunder was not one of them. Living standards were higher in East Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia than in Russia.

I am not sure what you mean about manpower pool.

 

[cremeegg]

On that we disagree.
I don’t think it’s desirable to surrender to tyrants.
I do think that freedom and democracy are worth fighting for. I’d fight so that my children and their children were not slaves.
So I’d fight against a totalitarian Russian regime but, for example, I wouldn’t fight against British rule if I lived in Northern Ireland.

Tricky that when you must decide when you must fight and when not.

I put up Pearse's poem the fool previously, a man prepared to fight for his ideals, his version of 'Fundamental freedoms worth fighting for, but not I think yours.

 

[odyssey06]

There were many issues with the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe during the Cold War, plunder was not one of them. Living standards were higher in East Germany, Poland and Czechoslovakia than in Russia.

I am not sure what you mean about manpower pool.

Were they higher than in the Europeanized parts of Russia? Russia is a vast country.
The Soviet system was setup to plunder Eastern Europe in the sense of directing its economic output to serve its ends - including so called Warsaw Pact and so called Soviet republics which were just colonies of Russia.

We can see that Russia was plundering Poland etc by the collapse in Russian living standards when these countries became independent, and Poland etc prospered. Russian living standards were inflated by plundering the economic output of Poland etc.

Manpower pool... is clear from this explanation of what Russia is doing in the regions it has illegally annexed:
Look at how it conscripted those in the annexed regions to send as cannon fodder against Ukraine.

The armed forces of those countries such as Poland & Ukraine within the USSR, the nationals of that country, were part of the manpower pool of Soviet \ Warsaw Pact forces threatening Western Europe and the world. The resources, the technical expertise of those countries added to the strength opposed to NATO. It wasn't just peace in Poland in the balance by Russia holding it in thrall.

To argue that there was nothing noble about Poles wanting their freedom from such a system, and in the circumstances of post-war, taking up arms to do so - is advocating surrender to tyranny. And a tyranny that set its sight on exporting its system of tyranny to the rest of Europe and the globe.

 

[cremeegg]

Were they higher than in the Europeanized parts of Russia?

(Living Standards) Yes they were.

The Soviet system was setup to plunder Eastern Europe in the sense of directing its economic output to serve its ends

I have never heard anyone say this before, what are you basing it on.

To argue that there was nothing noble about Poles wanting their freedom from such a system, and in the circumstances of post-war, taking up arms to do so - is advocating surrender to tyranny.

I never said there was nothing noble about Poles wanting their freedom from that system.

What I said was that I would not give my children's lives for freedom from that system.

In the Polish election the Social Democrat candidate and former communist Alexander Kwasniewski was chosen by 52% of the electorate over Walensa. That would suggest that many people who lived under the Soviet system didn't see it as tyranny. Indeed they didn't move to overthrow the system because of its tyranny but because it was failing to deliver prosperity. Now I am in danger of changing the topic, my basic point is that nothing is worth having your children's lives lost in the mud of some battlefield.