That's what I am hoping Protocol, but ppmeath suggests that it isn't so simple and that perhaps some employers are only going to pay out the "occupational" part of the pension, basically saying "tough luck" on the remaining €12k as they are interpreting the rules in a particular way. I wonder are there other post-95 employees who might have arrived into the Public Sector later in life, now retired, that could give us some useful insight as to what happened in their own particular case, particularly if they retired in advance of 65. This would be very useful indeed for the likes of myself - I won't be retiring for some time yet but I am also post-95 and looking to retire at 60 which is my minimum retirement age. However, if my employer refuses to supply me with a supplementary pension to cover the years from 60-68 then I won't be able to retire at 60 at all.
My occupational pension is reduced by the amount of the State Pension.
- Thread starter SlugBreath
- Start date
No it isn't - I posted and you quoted what the aim of the supplementary pension is for.
Both are entitled to the same benefits.
Please read what I posted and what you quoted again. Thanks.
Spot on. But when you post the rules of the scheme and even post legislation - and are ignored - sure what can you do.
That's a serious concern for sure. You'd think the Pensions Ombudsman would have dealt with/be dealing with several such cases as we type. It is a massive issue for post-95 people who aim to retire early only to find out that the dream may be going up in smoke! I'll be keeping a beady eye on how things progress over the next while, do keep us posted about your own case also and if you hear of any others that are in a similar boat. I wish ye all the very best of luck with your cases, it must be distressing to say the least to see a pension promise being abandoned in such a way.
He won't deal with it because he is of the incorrect view that the issue is a social welfare issue. The level of ignorance out there is astonishing. The pension promise hasn't been abandoned, see this by Richard Curran:
http://www.independent.ie/business/...al-value-of-a-public-sector-job-35038381.html
"None of these risks apply in the public sector. Public servants had to stomach a pension levy in the crash but the guarantee that underpins the ultimate value of defined benefit pension schemes is always there."
You are correct when you say that the employers are walking away and blaming the increase in the state pension age - as if this in some way diminishes their responsibility to provide the promised pension, the state are saying - "but you're not the right age" - it is disgusting and as for "independent" advice - don't make me laugh - sure why would the pension firms rock the boat - they have a very lucrative operation selling financial products to people like us - the bridge a gap that doesn't exist, I mean after paying PRSI for 40 years, after paying 5% of your salary for 40 years and your employer paying a PRSI contribution too - why not pay more eh?
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Hi Protocol
This is correct in the PS.
To take a hypothetical example of "Jack" who has a retirement age of 60, who wishes to retire at that age and who has 40 years of reckonable service and a final reckonable salary of €60000. If Jack is a Class D employee he should be entitled to an occupational pension of €30000. If Jack is a Class A employee his occupational pension is approx €17870. Jack can then apply to his employer for a Supplementary Pension to make up the difference. He is entitled to receive this provided he meets he conditions :
- Not be employed in any gainful capacity
- Not be in receipt of any social welfare payment, or, be in receipt of a reduced benefit only.
- You will be required to produce evidence from the Department of Social Protection either that you are not entitled to any payment or only entitled to payment at reduced rates of any social welfare benefit
- Establish that you are not entitled to disability/disablement benefit/invalidity pension, if retiring on the grounds of ill health
- Establish that you are not entitled to job seekers benefit (previously unemployment benefit).
Yes, I understand some employers may occasionally have been less than forthcoming in providing the supplementary pension, perhaps due to lack of familiarity with it (?). See this Guidance Note form the INMO : https://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/7059/8610
Just to note that not all Class A public servants are post 1995. There are two other similar public service schemes form much earlier : Nominated Health Agencies Superannuation Scheme (NHASS) and Voluntary Hospitals Superannuated Scheme (VHSS). These are noted in the INMO document referenced.
You are being given false and misleading information by people who do not know what they are talking about. I am asking you to read the two documents below carefully.
It is the original agreement from 1995 and the Circular that was issued - please don't read some guy's "interpretation" of something that he knows nothing about.
http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/finance/1995/06.pdf
http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/general-council/finance/1995/1281.pdf
This is your starting point:
"21. The superannuation terms applicable to established staff appointed on or
after 6 April 1995 will, apart from the amendments arising as a result of the
change in PRSI status and outlined above, be the same as the existing terms
for established officers."
Anyone that tells you that you are not entitled to the same pension as a pre 1995 is wrong.
Those documents provide the correct information regarding your pension entitlements - do not pay any heed to people who tell you otherwise. If you need any further clarification, I am happy to answer any of your queries.
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2007030100083
"Minister for Finance (Mr. Cowen):
Civil Servants appointed prior to April 1995 pay a modified rate of Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) and are not eligible for most Social Welfare benefits, including the Old Age Contributory Pension (OACP). Their personal pension entitlements are met entirely from the Civil Service (occupational) Pension Scheme.
All staff (with minor exceptions) appointed or reappointed as established civil servants on or after 6th April 1995 are full Class A PRSI contributors. As such they are entitled to the full range of Social Welfare benefits. Their civil service retirement benefits are integrated with the OACP.
The introduction of “integrated pensions” in 1995 was designed in such a way as to ensure that the combination of personal Social Welfare and civil service pension benefits was at least as favourable as the civil service benefits payable to pre 1995 appointees.
Any officer who received a marriage gratuity as a result of the “marriage bar” and who was subsequently re-appointed as an established civil servant is entitled to have all of the earlier service reckoned for civil service pension purposes subject to repayment of the gratuity with appropriate compound interest.
A person whose reappointment was prior to 1995 would, on retirement, receive a civil service pension and lump-sum calculated by reference to salary and length of service.
In the case of persons reappointed after 1 April 1995 the civil service retirement lump sum would be calculated on the same basis as above. Civil [1671]service pension would be calculated by reference to length of service but by reference to “integrated salary” i.e. salary less twice the personal rate of OACP. However, when aggregated with OACP entitlements, the total pension payable would be at least equal to, and in many cases greater than, the pension payable to a comparable pre 1995 appointee."
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/FAJ2006021400003
"Chairman:I welcome the delegation from the Department of Social and Family Affairs: Ms Anne Vaughan, principal officer in the pensions division......"
"While public sector employees recruited after 1995 are now subject to full class A insurance, modified insurance rates are still an important part of the social insurance system. The pension entitlements of those recruited after 1995 are integrated with the social welfare pension, a common practice in most defined benefit pension schemes in both the public and private sectors. This means the occupational pension and the social welfare pension are combined to give, for example, a civil servant with 40 years’ service a total pension of 50% of salary plus a lump sum....."
"Ms Vaughan: Like any other occupational pension, it would depend on the level. I understand that up to the mid-1980s, it was a defined benefit arrangement. Under this arrangement, a person is promised 50% of his or her salary. I expect that this would be the typical pension.
It is stated in the note that, since 1995, while new entrants pay full social insurance and receive full pensions, the latter are integrated with their occupational pensions, so the promise is the same but the make-up of the promise is different"
Ms Vaughan depending on the detail, there would still be a cost to the Exchequer. When we refer to integrated pensions, we are talking about defined benefits. As a civil servant, the promise is that my pension will constitute 50% of my pensionable salary. If that were integrated, the promise would be that I would get a pension worth 50% of my salary, but made up of the social welfare and occupational pension. While one might argue that from my point of view it is all State money, things are different in a private sector arrangement. I accept that there are issues of co-ordination to consider."
"Minister for Finance (Mr. Cowen):
Civil Servants appointed prior to April 1995 pay a modified rate of Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) and are not eligible for most Social Welfare benefits, including the Old Age Contributory Pension (OACP). Their personal pension entitlements are met entirely from the Civil Service (occupational) Pension Scheme.All staff (with minor exceptions) appointed or reappointed as established civil servants on or after 6th April 1995 are full Class A PRSI contributors. As such they are entitled to the full range of Social Welfare benefits. Their civil service retirement benefits are integrated with the OACP.
The introduction of “integrated pensions” in 1995 was designed in such a way as to ensure that the combination of personal Social Welfare and civil service pension benefits was at least as favourable as the civil service benefits payable to pre 1995 appointees.
Any officer who received a marriage gratuity as a result of the “marriage bar” and who was subsequently re-appointed as an established civil servant is entitled to have all of the earlier service reckoned for civil service pension purposes subject to repayment of the gratuity with appropriate compound interest.
A person whose reappointment was prior to 1995 would, on retirement, receive a civil service pension and lump-sum calculated by reference to salary and length of service.
In the case of persons reappointed after 1 April 1995 the civil service retirement lump sum would be calculated on the same basis as above. Civil [1671]service pension would be calculated by reference to length of service but by reference to “integrated salary” i.e. salary less twice the personal rate of OACP. However, when aggregated with OACP entitlements, the total pension payable would be at least equal to, and in many cases greater than, the pension payable to a comparable pre 1995 appointee."
http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/FAJ2006021400003
"Chairman:
I welcome the delegation from the Department of Social and Family Affairs: Ms Anne Vaughan, principal officer in the pensions division......""While public sector employees recruited after 1995 are now subject to full class A insurance, modified insurance rates are still an important part of the social insurance system. The pension entitlements of those recruited after 1995 are integrated with the social welfare pension, a common practice in most defined benefit pension schemes in both the public and private sectors. This means the occupational pension and the social welfare pension are combined to give, for example, a civil servant with 40 years’ service a total pension of 50% of salary plus a lump sum....."
"Ms Vaughan: Like any other occupational pension, it would depend on the level. I understand that up to the mid-1980s, it was a defined benefit arrangement. Under this arrangement, a person is promised 50% of his or her salary. I expect that this would be the typical pension.
It is stated in the note that, since 1995, while new entrants pay full social insurance and receive full pensions, the latter are integrated with their occupational pensions, so the promise is the same but the make-up of the promise is different"
Ms Vaughan depending on the detail, there would still be a cost to the Exchequer. When we refer to integrated pensions, we are talking about defined benefits. As a civil servant, the promise is that my pension will constitute 50% of my pensionable salary. If that were integrated, the promise would be that I would get a pension worth 50% of my salary, but made up of the social welfare and occupational pension. While one might argue that from my point of view it is all State money, things are different in a private sector arrangement. I accept that there are issues of co-ordination to consider."
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Everything was fine when the state pension age was 65 because most PS workers retire at that age.
Nobody who joined post 1995 has completed 30 or 40 years on the integrated scheme - because 1995 was 21 years ago.
There have been people badly affected by the misinformation relating to their entitlements, those who reached compulsory retirement age with very little service and those who had to avail of Ill Health Retirement, like my colleague who, because of the misinformation, has to exist on a pension of 143 per week after retiring on a salary of 56,000 and working 18 years in the CS - because of the failure of those who should understand "integration" - who do not.
The issue will explode when the first tranche of those who are due to retire in 2025 are provided with a pension well short of their entitlements.
The pension entitlements of Public Sector workers were never, ever, linked to the State pension age.
That only happened with the introduction of the new scheme introduced by Brendan Howlin in 2013. I had to alert a very senior person in the Civil Service that new entrants joining since then - will not be able to retire at 65 - their "minimum" retirement ages are now linked to the state pension providing one pension - hence the name.
Prior to that PS pensions were "integrated" (not linked) with SW entitlements.
Prior to 1995 employees have no entitlement to SW benefits, because they didn't make any contributions and as the then finance Minister Brian Cowen confirms:
"Their personal pension entitlements are met entirely from the Civil Service (occupational) Pension Scheme."
Sadly as is the way in this country - it's going to take a High Court case to resolve, when all the information and legislation is there - it is just being interpreted incrrectly by those who do not understand the issue.
Nobody who joined post 1995 has completed 30 or 40 years on the integrated scheme - because 1995 was 21 years ago.
There have been people badly affected by the misinformation relating to their entitlements, those who reached compulsory retirement age with very little service and those who had to avail of Ill Health Retirement, like my colleague who, because of the misinformation, has to exist on a pension of 143 per week after retiring on a salary of 56,000 and working 18 years in the CS - because of the failure of those who should understand "integration" - who do not.
The issue will explode when the first tranche of those who are due to retire in 2025 are provided with a pension well short of their entitlements.
The pension entitlements of Public Sector workers were never, ever, linked to the State pension age.
That only happened with the introduction of the new scheme introduced by Brendan Howlin in 2013. I had to alert a very senior person in the Civil Service that new entrants joining since then - will not be able to retire at 65 - their "minimum" retirement ages are now linked to the state pension providing one pension - hence the name.
Prior to that PS pensions were "integrated" (not linked) with SW entitlements.
Prior to 1995 employees have no entitlement to SW benefits, because they didn't make any contributions and as the then finance Minister Brian Cowen confirms:
"Their personal pension entitlements are met entirely from the Civil Service (occupational) Pension Scheme."
Sadly as is the way in this country - it's going to take a High Court case to resolve, when all the information and legislation is there - it is just being interpreted incrrectly by those who do not understand the issue.
By the way - the pension modeller is wrong.
When I enter my details it tells me:
"If you retire at age 60 you would receive a once off tax-free retirement gratuity of €73,196, less the deduction of any outstanding contributions. You would also receive a pension of €14,498. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis. Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,173.59 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension. "
There is no such pension as the OAP, it is now called the state contributory pension, furthermore - they have the rate incorrect:
It is now 233.30 per week or 12,131.60 - not 12,173,59.
My Social Welfare "benefits" are supposed to be "integrated" into my pension entitlements which are 50% of my final pensionable salary.
They have DEDUCTED this benefit - not "integrated" it - it also falsely tells me that this benefit - which is supposed to be "integrated" into my pension is not payable to me until I am 66.
After working for 30 years paying 40 years direct personal pension contributions (we double up for the final 10 years service), and because I have been working and paying a Class A stamp since I was 16 - 44 years of PRSI - I am "entitled" to a pension of €278 per week. If I don't work a day in my life I get 188 until I retire and then I get a few quid less then the non contributory state pension - and yet the "experts" can't see this?
This applies to every single PS employee who joined after 1995.
Let's take a normal Civil Servant who joined in 1995 but post 1995, so 21 years service.
Date of Birth 9/2/1975 Projected retirement date at age 65 09/02/2040
Pensionable Service to date 21 years
Service from today to retirement 23 Years and 97 Days Projected future working pattern 100% (Full Time)
On a retiring salary of 45k and a compulsory retirement age of 65 - it tells me:
"Your Benefits on retiring at age 65 (Based on current salary and Social Welfare rate)
If you retire at age 65 you would receive a once off tax-free retirement gratuity of €67,500, less the deduction of any outstanding contributions. You would also receive a pension of €10,326. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis.
Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,173.59 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension. "
The state pension age will increase to 67 years in 2021 and to 68 years in 2028, the retirement year of the example above is 2040, yet this is saying that the age is still 66.
Furthermore, after this person has worked in the CS from 1995 - 2040, 45 years, paid a personal pension contribution for 45 years and full PRSI for 45 years, their "pension" is 10,326 - 198 a week, a few quid more then the dole.
My god. How people cannot see the major, major screw up here is beyond me.
According to the "experts" every one of these employees will have to sign on the dole because they will all have the same massive shortfall.
After exhausting the SW entitlements they are then to apply for a supplementary pension - which means that they can't work if they wish and all because some idiot has misinterpreted the rules of the pension scheme, they have ignored all the relevant circulars, documents and legislation - because hey, they know better eh.
When I enter my details it tells me:
"If you retire at age 60 you would receive a once off tax-free retirement gratuity of €73,196, less the deduction of any outstanding contributions. You would also receive a pension of €14,498. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis. Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,173.59 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension. "
There is no such pension as the OAP, it is now called the state contributory pension, furthermore - they have the rate incorrect:
It is now 233.30 per week or 12,131.60 - not 12,173,59.
My Social Welfare "benefits" are supposed to be "integrated" into my pension entitlements which are 50% of my final pensionable salary.
They have DEDUCTED this benefit - not "integrated" it - it also falsely tells me that this benefit - which is supposed to be "integrated" into my pension is not payable to me until I am 66.
After working for 30 years paying 40 years direct personal pension contributions (we double up for the final 10 years service), and because I have been working and paying a Class A stamp since I was 16 - 44 years of PRSI - I am "entitled" to a pension of €278 per week. If I don't work a day in my life I get 188 until I retire and then I get a few quid less then the non contributory state pension - and yet the "experts" can't see this?
This applies to every single PS employee who joined after 1995.
Let's take a normal Civil Servant who joined in 1995 but post 1995, so 21 years service.
Date of Birth 9/2/1975 Projected retirement date at age 65 09/02/2040
Pensionable Service to date 21 years
Service from today to retirement 23 Years and 97 Days Projected future working pattern 100% (Full Time)
On a retiring salary of 45k and a compulsory retirement age of 65 - it tells me:
"Your Benefits on retiring at age 65 (Based on current salary and Social Welfare rate)
If you retire at age 65 you would receive a once off tax-free retirement gratuity of €67,500, less the deduction of any outstanding contributions. You would also receive a pension of €10,326. Your pension would be paid in arrears on a fortnightly basis.
Based on your Class A Social Welfare status, you may also be entitled to a Social Welfare contributory Old Age Pension from age 66, currently €12,173.59 per annum. If through no fault of your own you fail to qualify for a Social Welfare benefit, you may be entitled to a supplementary pension. "
The state pension age will increase to 67 years in 2021 and to 68 years in 2028, the retirement year of the example above is 2040, yet this is saying that the age is still 66.
Furthermore, after this person has worked in the CS from 1995 - 2040, 45 years, paid a personal pension contribution for 45 years and full PRSI for 45 years, their "pension" is 10,326 - 198 a week, a few quid more then the dole.
My god. How people cannot see the major, major screw up here is beyond me.
According to the "experts" every one of these employees will have to sign on the dole because they will all have the same massive shortfall.
After exhausting the SW entitlements they are then to apply for a supplementary pension - which means that they can't work if they wish and all because some idiot has misinterpreted the rules of the pension scheme, they have ignored all the relevant circulars, documents and legislation - because hey, they know better eh.
You appear to have been signing for credits since 2007? Don't you have to be actively seeking employment while doing or are you paying for voluntary contributions?
SlugBreath
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Would it not be possible to split this thread in to two threads. Public service pensions and private pensions and how they are dealt with?
I started the thread as a DB private pension person but it has me totally confused now.
I started the thread as a DB private pension person but it has me totally confused now.
It's already been done, but for the record, it is my belief that the same principle applies to private DB schemes.
When the state pension was increased the pension promise in both private and public DB schemes remained the very same, the employer is on the hook to fill the gap until you reach state pension age, both he and the state are refusing to acknowledge this - employees are caught in the middle and they are suffering despite the fact that the terms of their schemes never changed.
When you joined the scheme your employer made a promise to pay you a % of your salary when you retired at a specific age - that promise still exists, your employer wants to blame the state for changing the state pension age - but this should not have affected scheme members - the employer has to suck it up, but he doesn't want to.
http://www.pensionsauthority.ie/en/LifeCycle/Private_pensions/Final_salary_defined_benefit_schemes/
"Final salary defined benefit (DB) schemes are occupational pension schemes that provide a set level of pension at retirement, the amount of which normally depends on your service and your earnings at retirement or in the years immediately preceding retirement.
Example
A final salary DB scheme might provide at retirement a pension of 1/60th of final earnings for each year an employee was in the scheme. If an employee retires after 40 years, that employee would receive a pension of 40/60ths (2/3rds) of their final earnings before retirement."
If that was the promise when you joined, then that is the promise now.
"Final salary defined benefit (DB) schemes are occupational pension schemes that provide a set level of pension at retirement, the amount of which normally depends on your service and your earnings at retirement or in the years immediately preceding retirement.
Example
A final salary DB scheme might provide at retirement a pension of 1/60th of final earnings for each year an employee was in the scheme. If an employee retires after 40 years, that employee would receive a pension of 40/60ths (2/3rds) of their final earnings before retirement."
If that was the promise when you joined, then that is the promise now.
I posted this and it is from the Department of Social Protection:
" Defined benefit schemes
A defined benefit scheme is one where the benefit entitlement is defined in some way by reference to your earnings, your length of service, an index or a fixed amount. So, you know in advance that your pension will be, for example, half of your final salary if you have 40 years service or that it will be a certain amount each week. In defined benefit schemes, the contributions may have to be varied from time to time in order to make sure that the fund can meet the level of benefits. Some schemes have provisions for the employer to top up the fund if necessary."
Occupational pensions and social welfare pensions
Occupational and personal pensions operate independently of the social welfare pension system (Social welfare pensions include contributoryand non-contributorypensions) and there is no statutory link between the two. However, it is common for occupational pensions to take into account the level of social welfare pension received in calculating the level of benefit. For example, some schemes provide for a benefit, which, together with the social welfare pension, will give you a half or two-thirds of your final salary. This may be done when you start to receive your pension but your occupational pension may not be subsequently reduced because your social welfare pension is increased."
Your pension scheme has NOTHING to do with the social welfare pension scheme they operate completely independent of each other. The scheme takes into account the "level" of benefit, not the payment of it. Because they would have been in a position where they had to provide 2/3rds of your salary and then, if it wasn't integrated you could claim the State pension on top of that. Integration has been very good to DB private scheme let me tell you.
Your scheme promised you a pension based on your salary, years service and on attaining "minimum" retirement age - they "took into account" your PRSI contributions to the State pension. That the age changed has nothing to do with your pension promise - your employer has to pay you what he said, and when you come into entitlement for the state pension then he can reduce his payment.
" Defined benefit schemes
A defined benefit scheme is one where the benefit entitlement is defined in some way by reference to your earnings, your length of service, an index or a fixed amount. So, you know in advance that your pension will be, for example, half of your final salary if you have 40 years service or that it will be a certain amount each week. In defined benefit schemes, the contributions may have to be varied from time to time in order to make sure that the fund can meet the level of benefits. Some schemes have provisions for the employer to top up the fund if necessary."
Occupational pensions and social welfare pensions
Occupational and personal pensions operate independently of the social welfare pension system (Social welfare pensions include contributoryand non-contributorypensions) and there is no statutory link between the two. However, it is common for occupational pensions to take into account the level of social welfare pension received in calculating the level of benefit. For example, some schemes provide for a benefit, which, together with the social welfare pension, will give you a half or two-thirds of your final salary. This may be done when you start to receive your pension but your occupational pension may not be subsequently reduced because your social welfare pension is increased."
Your pension scheme has NOTHING to do with the social welfare pension scheme they operate completely independent of each other. The scheme takes into account the "level" of benefit, not the payment of it. Because they would have been in a position where they had to provide 2/3rds of your salary and then, if it wasn't integrated you could claim the State pension on top of that. Integration has been very good to DB private scheme let me tell you.
Your scheme promised you a pension based on your salary, years service and on attaining "minimum" retirement age - they "took into account" your PRSI contributions to the State pension. That the age changed has nothing to do with your pension promise - your employer has to pay you what he said, and when you come into entitlement for the state pension then he can reduce his payment.
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.
Hello Protocol,
This depends on your individual circumstances and scheme membership. I take it that you are in a Class A Public Service scheme with a retirement age of 60 (pre 2004 scheme, as some of the conditions changed then). If so and you meet the other conditions you should be eligible on application. I don't know what sector you are in but the conditions are essentially the same. I suggest you read through the following guidelines from various sectors and see if the conditions apply to you :
https://www.education.ie/en/Educati...ns/Supplementary-Pension-Explanatory-Note.pdf
http://www.nasra.ie/index.php?optio...atid=64:pensions--personal-finance&Itemid=254
https://www.pna.ie/index.php?option...sion-circular&catid=51:latest-news&Itemid=110
https://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/7059/8610
Of course, when you are due to retire may be a factor - in that there are many queries about the sustainability of public sector pensions in the long run. I gather from other contributors on this thread that the principle of supplementary pensions does not generally apply in the private sector, so it is a considerable perk.
Just to note - some of the above documents refer to the OAP which is now called the State Pension and to eligibility for a state transition pension at 65 (now abolished). Just ignore these - the conditions for eligibility for the supplementary have not changed and it is to bridge the gap to State Pension, at whatever age it kicks in at. One further thing - if you retire early you should strongly consider signing for PRSI credits.
The supplementary pension is only payable where you have no entitlement to a SW payment, or where you only qualify for a reduced level.
http://www.nasra.ie/index.php?optio...atid=64:pensions--personal-finance&Itemid=254
"Payment of a supplementary pension can arise where the person has retired from a Public Service position and was paying full PRSI i.e. be a Class A PRSI contributor and is only eligible for what is known as a co-ordinated pension, retires before reaching 65 years of age and who has no entitlement to any social welfare benefit or qualifies for a reduced level of benefit only."
The same document clearly states:
"Circumstances in which supplementary pension can be paid.
The Problem arises for the Class A PRSI contributor if they retire earlier than age 65 with no entitlement to any social welfare benefit which would make them substantially worse off than their Class D counterpart. An equal principle also applies that while they should be no better off neither should they be any worse off and this is provided for in legislation. Payment of a Supplementary Pension to rectify any anomaly is provided for under several sections of The Local Government (Superannuation,) (Consolidation) Scheme 1998 "
It does not say that the problem arises because you are not 65. The same document also states:
"In essence to qualify you must:
- "Not be employed in any gainful capacity
- Not be in receipt of any social welfare payment, or, be in receipt of a reduced benefit only.
- You will be required to produce evidence from the Department of Social Protection either that you are not entitled to any payment or only entitled to payment at reduced rates of any social welfare benefit
- Establish that you are not entitled to disability/disablement benefit/invalidity pension, if retiring on the grounds of ill health
- Establish that you are not entitled to job seekers benefit (previously unemployment benefit).
You now work and you pay Class A PRSI contributions, when you retire you WILL be entitled to some form of SW benefit, "in essence to qualify you MUST" not be entitled to ANY payment or a REDUCED payment.
The supplementary pension is not to bridge any gap - that is not true, please refer to this LEGISLATION:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2014/si/582/made/en/pdf
"19. Supplementary Pension
(1) This Article refers to a member who is fully insured as a member of this
Scheme, is in receipt of a pension or preserved pension and has attained the
minimum pension age or who is in receipt of a pension awarded under Article
18.
(2) Where a member to whom Paragraph (1) applies—
(a) for reasons outside of his or her control, fails to qualify for a Social
Welfare Benefit or qualifies for a Social Welfare benefit at a reduced
rate, and
(b) is unemployed
then, so long as the relevant body is satisfied that the pre-conditions set out in
this Article are met, the former member may, at the discretion of the relevant
body, be paid a supplementary pension."
"(3) The amount of supplementary pension payable shall be the amount, if
any, arrived at by the formula:
A — (B + C) where
[582] 21
"A is the amount of pension or preserved pension which would have been
payable to the former member if he or she had not been fully insured;"
B is the amount of pension actually payable to the former member, and
C is the amount of personal Social Welfare Benefit payable to the former
member."
When you retire and are fully insured but when both the occupational and SW benefit still leave you short of your 50% entitlement, then the supplementary pension is calculated and that is the amount that is paid.
This LEGISLATION says absolutely NOTHING about being 65, 66 or 67 - as a matter of fact, it states the opposite - do not listen to people who do not know what they are talking about.
The documents are there, the original agreement, the relevant circulars and the LEGISLATION all provide that you are entitled to your 50% of your final salary on retirement. It isn't confusing - where it gets confusing is when people who do not know and understand the pension scheme, interfere and ignore the facts, putting their own false interpretation on it.
As I said, this is now on Paschal Donoghues desk and he is looking at it.
J
jjm
Guest
I do voluntary work in my spare time ,I remember one of my colleagues telling me she was returning to work once she reached pension age ,She joined the PS around 1998 under the full prsi a stamp,she left when she was 64/65 and was doing voluntary work, Her PS pension was small ,From what I remember she was getting the state pension early provided she did not take up paid employment until she reached pension age
I started in PS post 95, but pre 2004.
If I retire at 62, I will not be entitled to any SW benefit.
I should receive my work pension + a supp pension until age 67.
The supp pension will be the difference between what a class A and a class D worker would get with my service.
If I retire at 62, I will not be entitled to any SW benefit.
I should receive my work pension + a supp pension until age 67.
The supp pension will be the difference between what a class A and a class D worker would get with my service.