Moving from Form 12 to Form 11 due to being accidental landlord - income tax "ceased" when trying to register for self assessment

Status
Not open for further replies.
P

podgerodge

Registered User
Messages
1,146
A relative has become an accidental landlord and therefore needs to do Form 11. I am helping them, and went into their revenue account to register for self assessment. The place where it says you can register shows "Income Tax - Ceased" - which a googling tells me is if you were previously registered for self assessment and revenue then cancelled that off. But my relative has never been self asssessed, only PAYE. Their only previous engagement with Revenue was a once off disclosure of foreign income (€2k p.a) years ago.

I proceeded to register for ROS as I read that I can only re-enable re-assessment by doing so.

Am I doing the correct thing - i.e. to get this on track
What other reasons could they have been "ceased"?

tax.webp

Completely aside, if they want to make it easier for small landlords with 1 property, surely they could increase the €5,000 total rent to €50k to cover most normal rentals and it would be so simple, they'd still get the same tax?
 
podgerodge said:
The place where it says you can register shows "Income Tax - Ceased" - which a googling tells me is if you were previously registered for self assessment and revenue then cancelled that off. But my relative has never been self asssessed, only PAYE.
Click to expand...
I had this issue but I had been self-assessed years ago due to more than €5K in stock incentive scheme nominal income but subsequently got off self-assessment. I need to go self-assessed again from 2025 and wasn't able to register via myAccount and had to contact Revenue via MyEnquiries to get this sorted. It still isn't sorted but I still need to see if I can log into ROS having received a new RAN (ROS Access Number). Your relative probably needs to contact Revenue to ask them how best to do about becoming self-assessed and get access to ROS.
 
So....in the end, we applied for a ROS number, and that came in the post, and we were able to register for ROS. That enabled putting initial details in like a code for being a landlord, entering gross rental income for 2025, downloading a digital cert and being able to log in.

Now the income tax is no longer "ceased". So proceeded to "complete a form online", "Form 11", and got the screen below. All good until the years available seem to be for years ago! :oops:

Also, it says "you need to make a self assessment before you submit this return - Revenue will assist by giving you an indicative calculation..."

So I'm confused. Is the Form 11 not the self assessment, and if it isn't, where is the self assessment!

They might encourage more small landlords if they just let them file via Form 12!

trying to complete form 11.webp
 
The self assessment is in the form 11.
You have to complete this before you can submitt your form 11.
 
Last edited:
podgerodge said:
Also, it says "you need to make a self assessment before you submit this return -
Click to expand...
At the very end of the filing there is a calculate tab where it calculates your liability in a column A.
You then have to make a self assessment in panel B whereby you either agree or disagree with their fugures in col A.
If you agree with their figures you just transfer col A to col B and tick that you agree.
 
I still need to try to use my RAN to get access to ROS again after many years so when I try that soon (hopefully later or tomorrow) I'll let you know how I get on and if I have a similar experience...
 
Following on from the above, if anyone has any views - having completed the Form 11, the end result was a rebate - primarily because the nursing home fees overrode the tax liability for rental income. And because this is only being filed now, and the standard income tax was paid throughout the year, a small refund applies.

My question - Form 11 self-assessment also appears to require a preliminary assessment for 2026 - which we have put Zero for - on the basis that this year should also result in a small refund. Am I correct in this logic - becuase when we put zero in, we were told that we could face penalties if this is incorrect. I am presuming we don't have to put an assessment for the rental income in, as we can assume the nursing home fees will cancel it out again. Hope that makes sense.
 
If you're sure you ll be getting a rebate fine but a lot can happen between now and Oct 26. Fortunately I believe you can amend the form anytime before Oct 26.
 
Or even after - you can submit amended returns going back a number of years - can't remember how many
 
You can amend form 11 as many times as you wish.

You can separately make a preliminary tax payment for 2026 up to 31st October in the 'Submit a once off Payment' area on ROS.
 
It would be quite normal to completely ignore the preliminary tax for 2026 when filing the 2025 return in January 2026.
But as stated above you need to revisit this and file a return later in the year.
You always have a choice to pay Preliminary Tax based on 100% of the previous yr liability or 90% the current yr liability.
 
Thank you all. Circumstances are expected to be the exact same this year but who knows. I'll keep an eye on it. The Form 11 was a bit daunting at first, but it's mainly because you have to scroll through a lot of pages of no relevance to accidental landlords. There should be a "Form 11 lite"!
 
podgerodge said:
Opriate I'll keep an eye on it.
Click to expand...
Diary it for 1st September. At that stage decide which is the most appropriate basis for calculating your preliminary tax: 90% of Current Year Tax or 100% of Previous Year Tax or 105% of Pre-Preceding Year Tax and update your return and pay by the deadline.

podgerodge said:
There should be a "Form 11 lite"!
Click to expand...
There is. It’s called Form 12. Forcing tens of thousands of people to return Form 11 when Form 12 is perfectly adequate and fit for purpose is profoundly stupid, a waste of taxpayers time and an incredible waste of Revenue’s allegedly scarce resources. This could be resolved by a stroke of a pen by increasing the “other Income” threshold from €5k to €25k and similar inconsequential changes. It is symptomatic of the extremely poor quality of leadership in Revenue over recent years that situations like this are not addressed, resulting in the revenue machine slowly grinding to a halt. Revenue appear to be on a path back to the cretonic form they had in the 80s, sweeping away all the subsequent improvements.
 
Last edited:
Millie* said:
It would be quite normal to completely ignore the preliminary tax for 2026 when filing the 2025 return in January 2026.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that? 2025 is my first year (in a long time) on self assessment and I understood that I needed to pay preliminary tax for 2025 before the end of October, and I did so. If this wasn't necessary then I guess that it will just be refunded or set against future liabilities. But I was sure that it was necessary.

What is preliminary tax?

This page utlines what preliminary tax is.
www.revenue.ie www.revenue.ie

What is preliminary tax?​

Preliminary tax is your estimate of the Income Tax, Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) and Universal Social Charge (USC) that you expect to pay for a tax year. You must pay this by 31 October of the tax year in question.
Click to expand...
Edit: ah, sorry. I see what you're saying now. You're decoupling filling the 2025 return from the payment of 2026 preliminary tax.
Millie* said:
when filing the 2025 return in January 2026.
But as stated above you need to revisit this and file a return later in the year.
Click to expand...
I don't understand this. If the 2025 return is filed in January 2026 then why would anything else be required later in the year? I presume you mean (a) file the 2025 return in January 2026 and (b) pay (not file?) the 2026 preliminary tax later on?
 
Last edited:
@ClubMan

If 2025 is your first year for self assessment then you are not required to pay preliminary tax in October/November 2025. You file and pay your 2025 final liability in October/November 2026 and at the same time pay your preliminary tax for 2026.

Now supposing you had paid preliminary tax for 2025 in October/November 2025, and you had overpaid, in order to get a refund you must now file a form 11 for 2025, 10/11 months ahead of the deadline. This should get you your refund now. You are not required to file/pay your 2026 preliminary tax at this time. So you would need to reopen your case in or around October 2026 and file/pay your 2026 preliminary tax then.

Hope that’s clear.
 
Freelance said:
If 2025 is your first year for self assessment then you are not required to pay preliminary tax in October/November 2025.
Click to expand...
Why do Revenue say this then?
Preliminary tax is your estimate of the Income Tax, Pay Related Social Insurance (PRSI) and Universal Social Charge (USC) that you expect to pay for a tax year. You must pay this by 31 October of the tax year in question.
Click to expand...
 
And...

What is preliminary tax?

This page utlines what preliminary tax is.
www.revenue.ie www.revenue.ie

Preliminary tax in your first year​

A payment of preliminary tax may not be required for the first year you are a self-assessed taxpayer. In the first year you are in the self-assessment system, you can choose either:
  • preliminary tax of 100% of the previous year's liability. Generally, you will not have to pay preliminary tax with this choice. This is because, in your first year your previous year’s liability would normally be ‘nil’.
  • or
  • pay preliminary tax of 90% of your tax due for the current tax year. This will reduce the amount of tax you need to pay in the subsequent year.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top