Mica scandal and the culpability of the state

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joe sod

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Exactly where these contaminated blocks came from, what quarries etc, were the quarries licensed and were the blocks tested by the state authorities namely the county councils. Surely these can't all be secrets the owners of the affected houses would know where these blocks came from.
There is something shadowy about the whole thing, is it because the state itself is culpable, we know that illegal quarries were allowed to operate for decades as exposed by the primetime investigates program.
Indeed some of the county councils actually purchased materials from these illegal quarries .
Also the state is resisting calls from the Donegal residents for a full public enquiry, why?
 
Dealing only with your last point, and bearing in mind the unbelievable costs of previous "full public enquiries" (some of which are still ongoing) and their utter pointlessness. I warmly applaud the government's refusal to hold another one. Public Inquiries/Enquiries have made millionaires of quite enough lawyers already - and to what end? They are pointless and expensive exercises in futility and a complete waste of taxpayers' money.

As I write, I think that a third (or is it a fourth) public enquiry/inquiry into the Stardust Disaster is under way. Presumably if the relatives aren't happy with the outcome of this one, they'll demand yet another one.
 
odyssey06 said:
There's something rotten in the state of Donegal, and I don't just mean the MICA houses.
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Any chance we can reopen the Boarder Commission and ask the Brit's to take it back?

Edit: Scratch that, then there would be a majority in Northern Ireland in favour of Unification and we'd end up with the whole lot of them. We'll just have to keep it.
 
Everyone is responsible but no one is responsibile but ultimately, we had a standard that was never effectively enforced post the Celtic Tiger years.
 
I do hope those bunkers the Shinners have with all the weapons that are beyond use weren't built with those dodgy blocks.
 
Peanuts20 said:
Everyone is responsible but no one is responsibile but ultimately, we had a standard that was never effectively enforced post the Celtic Tiger years.
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Did you mean 'pre Celtic Tiger'? The building control system changes after the Priory Hall incidents, with individual architects or engineers (and their PI insurance providers) signing off on compliance with building regs for new builds. Before that, it was down to individual clients or project managers. The state has a role in ensuring compliance with building regs, but inspection levels varied widely across the country, figures from 15% to 100% iirc.

What is the role of the State in licensing quarries and quality controlling the output?
 
This video is interesting, guy makes some good points but because he's assuming the audience is UK based ends up revealing much more than he would normally.

www.youtube.com

Housing Scandal Owners Abandoned By Government

Mica Action Group : https://www.micaactiongroup.comPaddy Diver : https://twitter.com/PaddyDiver4Official Twitter : https://twitter.com/micaactiongroupFACEBOO...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

1) refers to UK as the mainland
2) complains about the situation "down in Dublin" where they got full cover for pyrite, but skips mentioning that pyrite costs are closer to 30k per house. Also not just Dublin.
3) wanted full cover for holiday homes, and all rentals.

Clearly holiday homes are a major issue but one the groups don't mention too much in their media appearances here. Lot of holiday homes, and in Donegal they often have to be McMansions. Whatever chance you have of a modest non-Donegal style house surviving with substandard blocks - with a heavy costal house there's no hope. Can guarantee that people will be claiming their holiday home is their PPR and getting it rebuilt to modern spec. from your tax money - it's the simplest way to scam this.

But a holiday home is a luxury, no moral person could expect people including those struggling to buy their PPR or pay their rent to fund other people's holiday home. No wonder SF are hugely in support.
 
Why is the State getting stung with this?

And why are these whingers moaning about possibly having to cover a €45,000 excess themselves?

Ridiculous stuff.
 
RetirementPlan said:
Did you mean 'pre Celtic Tiger'? The building control system changes after the Priory Hall incidents, with individual architects or engineers (and their PI insurance providers) signing off on compliance with building regs for new builds. Before that, it was down to individual clients or project managers. The state has a role in ensuring compliance with building regs, but inspection levels varied widely across the country, figures from 15% to 100% iirc.

What is the role of the State in licensing quarries and quality controlling the output?
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There is no getting past the fact that corners were cut in the Celtic Tiger years. Plaster covered a lot of issues. However post the Tiger, the embargo on recruitment in the Public sector meant things got pushed down to the councils who couldn't get the resources to check and enforce in many cases
 
Peanuts20 said:
There is no getting past the fact that corners were cut in the Celtic Tiger years. Plaster covered a lot of issues. However post the Tiger, the embargo on recruitment in the Public sector meant things got pushed down to the councils who couldn't get the resources to check and enforce in many cases
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Whatever about active \ pro-active enforcement, did Donegal county council continue using the quarry even after concerns were raised about contaminated output from the site? With no reactive check?
 
If the State failed to ensure its own rules were followed then it is liable to a lesser or greater extent but where are the criminal investigations of the owners of illegal quarries and anyone else who knowingly used illegal or faulty products? If there were a few dozen people facing 20-30 years in prison for costing the State over 2 billion Euro I'd be happier about all this.
 
Why can't the state give these people a 1% fixed-rate, interest-only loan for life to rebuild? State covers its funding costs and gets most of its money back at the end. These people get to live in a new house for life.

It would need some co-operation from mortgage lenders but plenty of these houses aren't mortgaged at all.
 
odyssey06 said:
Whatever about active \ pro-active enforcement, did Donegal county council continue using the quarry even after concerns were raised about contaminated output from the site? With no reactive check?
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its not just the quarry, its the block manufaturer(s) as well. the main manufacturer has always claimed their blocks met the required standards
 
The culpability of the quarry, the CC, the builders, etc, is all moot. This risk wasn't insured against and there is no private pot of gold here to remediate it.

The issue is that you have:
  1. Houses that are becoming increasingly uninhabitable
  2. Occupiers that have a housing need
What should the state do?

The state has taken the bizarre decision that the only way to deal with (2) is to knock and fully rebuild (1), and the even more bizarre decision to fully fund it.

There are some hard cases of people with their houses falling down around their ears on modest incomes and with big mortgages. I have huge sympathy and I think the state should support these people. But that this one end of the spectrum. There are also cash-only landlords of holiday homes here who are going to be made whole here and this is a really disgusting use of public funds.

The other issue is that redress could easily have been in the form of an interest-only loan at a fixed, low rate for life. Why on earth they will get to own their new homes outright is beyond me.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of young people in Ireland right now who would like to build or buy a 1000sqft house (never mind a 2400sqft one which is the average in Donegal!) but either don't have the funds or can't borrow enough. And yet the state can find €3bn, a large portion of which will be used to build new houses for people many of whom can afford to fund it fully or in part themselves! And don't get me started on the fact that it will reinforce existing patterns of car-dependent, one-off housing.

Pretty much 80% of online commentary is opposed to the redress scheme. The other 20% is "sue the quarry" or whatever which is unrealistic. If I'm not wrong there hasn't been a single TD or senator who has come out in public against this. Astonishing.

A very small number of people have managed to milk the taxpayer for billions here in spite of public opposition or indifference. €3billion would build a small metro in Dublin and would be used by hundreds of thousands of people daily. It's the kind of policy error that I haven't seen since the financial crisis back in 2008/9. What's worse is that there was no urgency here either.
 
NoRegretsCoyote said:
There are also cash-only landlords of holiday homes here who are going to be made whole here and this is a really disgusting use of public funds.
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Only rentals that are registered with the PRTB are covered.
NoRegretsCoyote said:
The other issue is that redress could easily have been in the form of an interest-only loan at a fixed, low rate for life. Why on earth they will get to own their new homes outright is beyond me.
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I presume that the existing mortgage will still be outstanding when the houses are rebuilt or am I missing something?
 
SF are really funny making this a political issue. 'Nobody can be expected to rebuild a house in the back end of Donegal for €420,000'...

Also found it funny Micheal Martin saying that installing air filters in every classroom in Ireland would cost €80m like that is a shocking price to pay while approving a scheme costing over €2 billion to rebuild houses that the State had no part in building and Insurance companies walked away from...

It's a funny Country.....
 
Sunny said:
SF are really funny making this a political issue. 'Nobody can be expected to rebuild a house in the back end of Donegal for €420,000'...
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The same people who were planning to build 100,000 homes for 6.5B - 65,000 a unit. Sounds like they'll have to up that 50B+ if we're to get Sinn Fein sized homes.
www.irishtimes.com

Election 2020: Is Sinn Féin’s housing policy credible?

The party promises to build 100,000 homes for €6.5 billion – can it be done?
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
 
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