McGrath: When the CB reaches a conclusion, it should communicate that to the affected borrowers

Brendan Burgess

Brendan Burgess

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This is what the Governor said at the Oireactas Finance Committe meeting
(post updated as transcript has become available)

Michael McGrath


On the tracker issue, this has been gone into earlier on but the outstanding issues which continue to be referred to us would include:
the AIB prevailing rate and
related issues in Permanent TSB.
Bank of Ireland staff members continue to report issues.
We are getting emails from former customers of First Active who are now customers of Ulster Bank.
Customers of EBS are also sending in significant complaints.

I know the Central Bank is continuing to focus on them. The point is coming quite quickly at which we will need to give people definitive answers and definitive conclusions. They may not be the ones they want to hear, but people deserve to know the final position pretty quickly so they can then take the matter further through the process if they so desire, whether that is through the Ombudsman or the courts. As the Chairman has said, some of the lack of engagement, lack of response and lack of information which individual customers are getting from lenders is not satisfactory.

The Central Bank owes it to them to reach a conclusion, as it appears to have done on the AIB prevailing rate. It is supporting the bank's interpretation in that case. The Central Bank should be up front and tell people so that they know exactly where they stand.

Derville Rowland

... It is true that in the case of AIB we already communicated that we reached a conclusion. It is not our view that we support the bank's interpretation, but that, from a systemic perspective, we could not interfere in the decision it had made about its interpretation of the customer journey in the contracts.

I completely agree with the Deputy that people deserve to know as soon as possible in cases where a matter is not going to be contested further. I said earlier that we and the lenders know where there are no issues between us and they have been instructed very clearly to get on with replying to people on those issues so that people can have their complaints brought forward. The Ombudsman is aware of that so that the system can work and so that complaints can be dealt with.

The matters with Permanent TSB are not yet closed. They are still under discussion and

we do not propose to take any action with any further or different staff issues in Bank of Ireland. I will be clear on that as well.
 
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From earlier on

Derville Rowland
The numbers we have identified to date represent, in our view, the vast majority of customers who should be admitted into the tracker mortgage examination. As we are doing this work, we have a significant number of very detailed work blocks under way with all of the lenders in the examination to ensure the correct customers are identified and responsibility is taken. As we go through that very detailed work, some of which is complete, there may be additional smaller numbers or groups of customers who should be included. We believe it is a very small amount.

I will outline the work involved to give the Deputy a flavour of how it can come about. We have identified groups of customers that should be included for a particular reason. However, we are actually doing verification work on the numbers of customers in a group. We might have an unverified number of, for example, 200 customers affected by a particular issue. However, we are going back to spot-check and recreate the data to inform us on whether 200 is the correct or incorrect figure. In that work we have found the figure sometimes adjusts downwards and that it can actually occasionally adjust upwards. It is with that verification that the number can adjust, as we have found. Equally, we have closed out the known issues with some of the lenders; therefore, we think there will be no more movement, bar that verification adjustment with these lenders. However, we are still in dialogue with others on issues that could result in an adjustment. It is our view that the vast majority affected have been identified and we anticipate very small adjustments in the number.

Pearse Doherty:
I understand exactly what Ms Rowland has suggested. At this point there is no dispute between the Central Bank and any of the financial institutions on what it and they believe are impacted customers, although they might have a different view.

Rowland
We have no dispute where we have come to a point where we cannot find a resolution or agreement, meaning that everything that we have asked to be done so far with respect to inclusion of groups or what is required to be done has occurred, but there are some issues that we are still discussing with firms that could result in the number being adjusted. However, it has not yet reached the level of dispute where they do not agree with us. If that happens - we do not anticipate that we would allow it to happen - we will deal with it.

Pearse Doherty
Is the issue of the prevailing rate closed in the Central Bank's view? This will come as a major disappointment. I am sure all of my colleagues have the same experience. We have received countless emails and other correspondence from individuals who want to know if it is now up to them to seek redress through the courts on the issue of the prevailing rate.


Rowland

I cannot talk about particular institutions in detail. I can tell the Deputy that we have looked across the different contracts lenders have in the different customer journeys. Certainly, it is clear that the prevailing rate issue has been dealt with in some of the entities. We are still in discussion with others.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
From earlier on

Derville Rowland
The numbers we have identified to date represent, in our view, the vast majority of customers who should be admitted into the tracker mortgage examination. As we are doing this work, we have a significant number of very detailed work blocks under way with all of the lenders in the examination to ensure the correct customers are identified and responsibility is taken. As we go through that very detailed work, some of which is complete, there may be additional smaller numbers or groups of customers who should be included. We believe it is a very small amount.

I will outline the work involved to give the Deputy a flavour of how it can come about. We have identified groups of customers that should be included for a particular reason. However, we are actually doing verification work on the numbers of customers in a group. We might have an unverified number of, for example, 200 customers affected by a particular issue. However, we are going back to spot-check and recreate the data to inform us on whether 200 is the correct or incorrect figure. In that work we have found the figure sometimes adjusts downwards and that it can actually occasionally adjust upwards. It is with that verification that the number can adjust, as we have found. Equally, we have closed out the known issues with some of the lenders; therefore, we think there will be no more movement, bar that verification adjustment with these lenders. However, we are still in dialogue with others on issues that could result in an adjustment. It is our view that the vast majority affected have been identified and we anticipate very small adjustments in the number.

Pearse Doherty:
I understand exactly what Ms Rowland has suggested. At this point there is no dispute between the Central Bank and any of the financial institutions on what it and they believe are impacted customers, although they might have a different view.

Rowland
We have no dispute where we have come to a point where we cannot find a resolution or agreement, meaning that everything that we have asked to be done so far with respect to inclusion of groups or what is required to be done has occurred, but there are some issues that we are still discussing with firms that could result in the number being adjusted. However, it has not yet reached the level of dispute where they do not agree with us. If that happens - we do not anticipate that we would allow it to happen - we will deal with it.

Pearse Doherty
Is the issue of the prevailing rate closed in the Central Bank's view? This will come as a major disappointment. I am sure all of my colleagues have the same experience. We have received countless emails and other correspondence from individuals who want to know if it is now up to them to seek redress through the courts on the issue of the prevailing rate.


Rowland

I cannot talk about particular institutions in detail. I can tell the Deputy that we have looked across the different contracts lenders have in the different customer journeys. Certainly, it is clear that the prevailing rate issue has been dealt with in some of the entities. We are still in discussion with others.
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The “verification” process Rowland references here might explain the delay in EBS providing a resolution/final response letter to customers who are still in the examination. It looks like nearly all cohorts who could be affected have been identified by lenders & Central Bank and it’s now a case of identifying how many customers are affected in that group. My reading of it anyway.
 
Anyone got a "feeling" as to which intuition the CB are referring too in relation to the 1500?
 
Apples82 said:
Anyone got a "feeling" as to which intuition the CB are referring too in relation to the 1500?
Click to expand...
This will help you work it out;)
 

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Apples82 said:
Hoping against all hope I've whittled it down correctly!
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They acknowledge that issues with PTSB are not closed but sadly seem to have drawn a line under the AIB prevailing group & Bank of Ireland staff issues. Are Ulster Bank & KBC regarded as main lenders in the market? Not sure. Could be them. If not then by process of deduction that leaves one lender and the 1500 are relevant to that institution or mainstream bank. Wording suggests the group might not necessarily be customers of said mainstream bank.
 
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It's indeed Ulster bank. It was in the articles that UB had identified an additional 1500 - 2000 accounts that are impacted and the exact numbers to be verified. This was part of the 3400 additional accounts that were added during end March. Derville Rowland also confirmed that this unverified 1500+ accounts are part of the 3400 additional accounts identified during end March. Don't think CB will say anything about EBS accounts until end of June!
 
Wha does ms Rowland mean when she talks about "the customer journey in the contracts"? I'm completely baffled
 
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