Maths Results Crisis 2008

[REXO]

This doesn't surprise me given that requirement for student Primary School Teachers is a C3 in Pass maths.???????

A love and ability at maths is instilled at Primary School.

We have to get better quality teachers into the system, pay them more?

Its a miracle I got through school and college when i think of the pathetic maths teachers I had through primary and secondary.

A female teacher friend of mine tells me that theres a greater emphasis on languages in primary schools because primary teachers are predominantly female who prefer to do teach irish and music than maths.


Rexo

 

[Anton]

What a generalisation! I got an A1 in honours maths and took it as a degree subject as part of my BEd. I'm (despite the user name) female and know quite a few other females in the same boat.

 

[Ash 22]

I honestly don't think primary school is the problem. There is a vast difference between maths in primary school and the maths they do in secondary school. Our teachers are coming out well qualified and even if a primary teacher got a C3 in her leaving cert maths that does'nt stop her from being a very good maths teacher. Primary school maths is not rocket science. Do you realise students entering primary school training colleges require way higher points than those going on to do arts. I would have been great at maths in primary school but then when I got to secondary school I would have found them much tougher. There is no comparison.

 

[irishlinks]

Making maths compulsory at Leaving cert is maybe part of the problem. For many people the stuff like calculus and other complex maths (I can't even remember the name of) - is just beyond them. In the UK a very small proportion of students do Maths beyond age 16. They have to choose to do it at A Level. Here in Ireland the Leaving Cert structure means that people end up doing Maths when they do not want to do and have no interest in it. Make it compulsory to Junior Cert - but optional after that.

 

[Morgause]

I agree that the quality of maths teaching highly influences the outcome of the students' results. I wasn't very good at maths until I had an excellent teacher in secondary school. I was very lucky to have had this teacher.

However, I also think that there is a problem in this country in that it's ok to be "hopeless at maths". How many times have you heard people say that they were never any good at maths in school? I believe that this "maths is too difficult" attitude influences young people so much that they have this barrier up before they even try.

As for the idea of making maths optional for leaving cert... I'm not sure how to respond to that, except that I think it would be a very bad idea.

 

[ClubMan]

This doesn't surprise me given that requirement for student Primary School Teachers is a C3 in Pass maths.???????

A love and ability at maths is instilled at Primary School.

We have to get better quality teachers into the system, pay them more?

Its a miracle I got through school and college when i think of the pathetic maths teachers I had through primary and secondary.

A female teacher friend of mine tells me that theres a greater emphasis on languages in primary schools because primary teachers are predominantly female who prefer to do teach irish and music than maths.


Rexo

This is not a Consumer Issues and Rights issue.

Read the posting guidelines before posting again.

 

[DrMoriarty]

Why is this in Consumer Issues and Rights?

Moved to Miscellaneous Non-financial Questions.

[Edit: Post crossed with ClubMan's]

 

[Ash 22]

Some of the maths that are being done in secondary school are quite ridiculous and they are never used again for anything. They are so uninteresting and can take up so much time that could be put into another subject instead.

 

[ontour]

We have to get better quality teachers into the system, pay them more?

Paying people more does not necessarily lead to a commensurate improvement in their performance, you only have to look at politicians to understand that and we, the public, interview them for their jobs.

I think that there needs to be some realignment between the course content for maths and applied maths where some aspects of the current leaving certificate maths syllabus should be moved to the applied maths syllabus. This would need to be done in tandem with extending the availability of Applied Maths so that students with an interest in that areas still have the opportunity to grow their knowledge

 

[diarmuidc]

Some of the maths that are being done in secondary school are quite ridiculous and they are never used again for anything. They are so uninteresting and can take up so much time that could be put into another subject instead.

What maths exactly?

 

[micmclo]

Some of the maths that are being done in secondary school are quite ridiculous and they are never used again for anything..

I used to think that two until I got a job in a bank. Lots of this stuff is used and I'm not taking about managing someones account but monitoring risk and performance of funds. All complex equations

So yes, most people won't ever use it but that's hardly "never used again for anything"

Hell, just stroll down to the bookies or use and you can get into probablity and arbritage without even realizing it

 

[truthseeker]

What maths exactly?

Lots of it. Obviously depending on if you go on to third level education or a career that require you to use particular topics, but for the most part after formal education I never had a need to use trigonometry, co-ordinate geometry, complex numbers, calculus, statistics and probability or functions and graphs. There may be more.

 

[diarmuidc]

Lots of it. Obviously depending on if you go on to third level education or a career that require you to use particular topics, but for the most part after formal education I never had a need to use trigonometry, co-ordinate geometry, complex numbers, calculus, statistics and probability or functions and graphs. There may be more.

If you are not interested in that why not do pass or foundation level maths? After all in you day to day life you only need to be able to add, multiply, divide and have a basic grasp of financial formulae

All of this maths is vital for any scientist , engineer, economist etc.. If Ireland is serious about building a strong economy these people are the foundation.

A lot of what you learn in Leaving Cert is not applicable to you day to day life after school. (Shakespeare? John Donne? French?)

 

[truthseeker]

If you are not interested in that why not do pass or foundation level maths? After all in you day to day life you only need to be able to add, multiply, divide and have a basic grasp of financial formulae

All of this maths is vital for any scientist , engineer, economist etc.. If Ireland is serious about building a strong economy these people are the foundation.

Because for the points race people feel they need to do as many Honours subjects as possible.

I am both a scientist and a software engineer incidentally and I have never had to use any of the topics I mentioned in a real life situation (only as part of coursework in third level education).

It should be optional - the Irish education system forces people to try to do well in subjects that they have no natural aptitude for and does not encourage people in subjects that they ARE good at. Plenty of people never use anything bar basic maths after school, yet are forced to study it for 6 years in secondary school, time that may have been better spent in a subject they cared about. Same goes for all non optional Leaving Cert subjects (Irish and English).

 

[GeneralZod]

I love maths and had good maths teachers.

Learning new concepts can require effort though before it mentally clicks. Most of the rest of schooling is just learning by rote.

The kids need to work harder. Where they don't have qualified teachers they really are at a serious disadvantage.

 

[diarmuidc]

I am both a scientist and a software engineer incidentally and I have never had to use any of the topics I mentioned in a real life situation (only as part of coursework in third level education).

I am an engineer and my day to day work is built on calculus. If you trying to claim that maths is optional to understanding most physical sciences and engineering then you are away with the birds.

Plenty of people never use anything bar basic maths after school, yet are forced to study it for 6 years in secondary school, time that may have been better spent in a subject they cared about. Same goes for all non optional Leaving Cert subjects (Irish and English).

Wait a sec, as far as I remember higher level maths is mandatory only for certain science and engineering third level courses. Isn't this still true?
And yes I believe that passing a certain level (at least foundation level) of maths should be required before you can claim to have a rounded education.

 

[MrMan]

Surely there are too many subjects required to have a 'rounded education'. I think the problem a lot of people had with maths was they would learn formulae and the like but not understand why they were actually usuing it and for what purpose. If there was more emphasis on the real life uses of mathemathics then maybe more people would find it interesting and not argue against its practicality.

 

[Ash 22]

What maths exactly?

Truthseeker has given a run down on the maths which not everybody requires but obviously as I overlooked some people still do.

Listening to the minister speaking on the news they seem to be making a change on the maths syllabus for the future so that sounds promising.

 

[truthseeker]

I am an engineer and my day to day work is built on calculus. If you trying to claim that maths is optional to understanding most physical sciences and engineering then you are away with the birds.

Where did I claim that? If you read my post I said that I never had a need to use the topics I mentioned in a real life situation besides third level education coursework.

Wait a sec, as far as I remember higher level maths is mandatory only for certain science and engineering third level courses. Isn't this still true?
And yes I believe that passing a certain level (at least foundation level) of maths should be required before you can claim to have a rounded education.

I think youve missed my point. It certainly is only mandatory for some courses but if you want to do a course that you need high points for you need to do as many honours subjects as possible just to achieve those points. Physiotherapy as an example, high points needed - but maths not necessarily important to the study of physiotherapy.

I loved maths, but I agree with posters who say that it should be optional, and I think that a lot of what is taught as part of the maths curriculum is never used by many people after school. Scientists, engineers - yes - but they do not make up the highest percentage of the population, if it was optional then people who wanted to become scientists or engineers would take it as a subject. Certainly students should be given a good grounding in maths, but the basics have been acquired by Junior Cert level and topics such as calculus, trigonometry etc....are not used by a hell of a lot of people in their everyday lives OR their jobs after school/college.

 

[diarmuidc]

Surely there are too many subjects required to have a 'rounded education'. I think the problem a lot of people had with maths was they would learn formulae and the like but not understand why they were actually usuing it and for what purpose. If there was more emphasis on the real life uses of mathemathics then maybe more people would find it interesting and not argue against its practicality.

Have you looked at the Foundation Level paper for the leaving cert. Here is paper & ? Here two sample questions. Doesn't get more "real life" to me

A person worked for 42 hours in a particular week.
The rate of pay for the first 35 hours was €12·48 per hour.
The rate of pay for the remaining hours was €18·72 per hour.

Find

(i) the gross wage for the week

(ii) the tax at 20%, given a tax credit of €64·40

(iii) the PRSI, to the nearest cent, at 4% of gross wages

(iv) the take-home pay.

The number of litres of oil used to heat a building for five months is shown.

October 500
November 650
December 150
January 750
February 450

(i) Draw a bar-chart to illustrate the information.

(ii) Calculate the average amount of oil used per month.

(iii) Draw a line across the bar-chart to show this average.

(iv) Which month shows the greatest difference between the oil used and the average?

(v) What is the average cost of heating the building per month, if oil costs €0·65 per litre?