Massive rent increase in 1 year

[Satanta]

The OP just said that there are rooms available in the same block for EUR 650 p/m. The owners are trying to charge EUR 800.

For arguments sake, these rooms are potentially being sublet at the old rate. When they come up for renewal, the rate may jump to the new price (which the OP has said that any of the full apartments up for renewal are going at) of €800p/m.

A (couple of) room(s) at €650p/m isn't enough to establish a market rate. They need to provide as much information as possible if they want to put forward a detailed and robust case.

(It's information which should easily be attained [and which I presume will assist the OPs case hence the (repeated) suggestion to attain it])

 

[Afuera]

For arguments sake, these rooms are potentially being sublet at the old rate. When they come up for renewal, the rate may jump to the new price (which the OP has said that any of the full apartments up for renewal are going at) of €800p/m.

The market rate for rent is defined as the price that new tenants can obtain a similarily specced property in the same area. If a new tenant is able to rent one today for EUR 650, by definition those paying EUR 800 are paying above market rate.

The market rate and the rate that the owners pick off the top of their head are not one and the same.

 

[Satanta]

The market rate and the rate that the owners pick off the top of their head are not one and the same.

And one room at a lower price does not prove that all other prices are above the market rate.

I fully agree that the OP (if the renewel is at €2400) is (probably) [none of us know the exact details of the property so can't comment either way with authority] being charged well above the going rate. I'm not disputing that. I'm suggesting they provide the information to prove it. One room at a lower price is not sufficient information to prove anything.

 

[Afuera]

And one room at a lower price does not prove that all other prices are above the market rate.

If there are cheaper rooms out there it proves that a landlord is willing to accept that price, and if taken up by a tenant proves that there are willing tenants at that price. This is the open market rate.

I'm suggesting they provide the information to prove it.

Fair enough, the OP should do their homework to try and work out what the market rate is and see if they are being wronged. Ultimately though it is the PRTBs job to determine the open market rate and take action against the landlord if they are exceeding it.

Based on the info the OP has provided here I suspect they would have a very strong case. It only costs EUR 25 to place the complaint with the PRTB, and has the added bonus of preventing the rent being increased until the dispute is resolved.

 

[shanegl]

It only costs EUR 25 to place the complaint with the PRTB, and has the added bonus of preventing the rent being increased until the dispute is resolved.

This is the key point here, and is the reason I would submit a complaint if in the same position. If anything, it gives you some breathing room to consider your options further.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Camry said:

If what the OP says is true the owner is using his position (sole LL) to extract monopoly rents.

Again, your best bet is to walk. The rental market is swimming with stock at present.

How can any landlord in Dublin have a monopoly? It's a very big market with lots of suppliers.

 

[TrueBlue]

This does seem quite high for flats. Do you actually mean apartments? Reasonably new, etc?

Whereabouts is the property?

 

[Bronte]

Everybody seems to think the PRTB will be able to solve this. Is it actually the case that the PRTB have the power to stop the landlord increasing the rent by as much as he wants? Anyone know how they decide what is the market rent. Do they use a one mile radius, post code, distance from city centre?

OP for comparison of other apartments can you give us a rough estimate of the size of the apartments, number of bathrooms, distance from city centre etc so it's easier to see it it's a swish grandiose apartment in Ballsbridge or a small dingy bed-sit type and then one can compare prices using Daft.

 

[mercman]

The Op has not mentioned the location of the apartments. It may be in the centre of Dublin or a high value area. As the owners own the entire block, they can let them at whatever price they wish. It's called Supply and Demand, regardless of what the wretched PRTB say.

 

[bankrupt]

Everybody seems to think the PRTB will be able to solve this. Is it actually the case that the PRTB have the power to stop the landlord increasing the rent by as much as he wants?

Yes, the PRTB do have this power.

Anyone know how they decide what is the market rent. Do they use a one mile radius, post code, distance from city centre?

There's the rub, I have not found anything other than a vague reference to "open market rates."

 

[bankrupt]

The Op has not mentioned the location of the apartments. It may be in the centre of Dublin or a high value area. As the owners own the entire block, they can let them at whatever price they wish. It's called Supply and Demand, regardless of what the wretched PRTB say.

Obviously the landlord is free to attempt to get whatever rates he wants/can from new tenants. He is not free to extort whatever rents he chooses from existing tenants.

 

[Bronte]

Ok the PRTB have the power. Different question, has anyone an example of where the PRTB was able to keep the rent down?

Bankrupt are you saying that 'open market rates' is waffle. A figure that is impossible to quantify? If that's the case they may have the 'power' but it isn't up to much and would be of no help to the OP.

Also conversely do the PRTB have to power to reduce rents if the market for rents is decreasing?

 

[bankrupt]

There's a good discussion of rent reviews in this document from page 69 on.

It states that the PRTB will use its register of rents to determine the open market rate.

 

[bankrupt]

Ok the PRTB have the power. Different question, has anyone an example of where the PRTB was able to keep the rent down?

Here's one:

[broken link removed]

and a slightly clearer example: [broken link removed]

Bankrupt are you saying that 'open market rates' is waffle. A figure that is impossible to quantify? If that's the case they may have the 'power' but it isn't up to much and would be of no help to the OP.

Difficult or vague perhaps but hardly "impossible."

Also conversely do the PRTB have to power to reduce rents if the market for rents is decreasing?

If you mean, can the PRTB set rents prior to the start of a tenancy then the answer is no.

 

[Afuera]

There's a good discussion of rent reviews in this document from page 69 on.

That is an interesting link.

The following paragraph on page 70 in particular seems quite surprising:

Rents may be reviewed upwards or downwards. An
example serves to illustrate the significance of this point. Assume
that the parties agree the rent for a particular dwelling. The tenant
proceeds to sign a tenancy agreement, takes up possession and
then (almost immediately) refers a dispute to the PRTB
concerning the rent reserved (i.e., the tenant argues that the rent
reserved under the tenancy agreement is “greater than the amount
of the market rent for that tenancy”). The result is that a rent
freely negotiated and agreed between the landlord and the tenant
may subsequently be disturbed by referral of a dispute about the
rent to the PRTB (depending on the Board’s view of the
prevailing market rent)​

Am I reading this correctly, that landlords do not even have to right to try and charge exhorborant rents to new tenants either? Even if the tenant previously agrees to pay that price? What is to stop all tenants from putting in a dispute with the PRTB immediately after they start renting a place, and effectively stop the market price from ever being increased?

If I am reading it correctly that paragraph would also seem to suggest that even the tenants in the OPs block that agreed to the new rent could put in a dispute with the PRTB stating that it is not at the market rate.

 

[Bronte]

Bankrupt, the first case you put in isn't clear and the second one while it holds the rent for that particular tenant, it seems the tenant was evicted anyway so the landlord can get a new tenant at whatever rent the market will take it.

In relation to rent decreases, if after a year the landlord comes to a rent review can he be forced to reduce the rent if the market has decreased. But it seems now you can get a tenant in and immediately the tenant can complain to the PRTB that the rent is too high.

I don't see how the PRTB can use their database to decide on what rents should be. You have to make allowance for quality & size of the property also. A graded structure like you have for hotels perhaps.

 

[bankrupt]

Am I reading this correctly, that landlords do not even have to right to try and charge exhorborant rents to new tenants either? Even if the tenant previously agrees to pay that price?

Not quite, the tenant has the right to dispute the rent once they are in a part 4 tenancy (i.e. after 6 months). I presume this will take precedence over any lease agreement.

What is to stop all tenants from putting in a dispute with the PRTB immediately after they start renting a place, and effectively stop the market price from ever being increased?

Nothing at all it seems.

If I am reading it correctly that paragraph would also seem to suggest that even the tenants in the OPs block that agreed to the new rent could put in a dispute with the PRTB stating that it is not at the market rate.

Good point, the OPs' neighbours should lodge disputes immediately (if they believe the increase is above the market rate of course!). It is not clear whether they would be entitled to continue to pay rent at the old rate until the dispute is decided, I imagine not.

 

[bankrupt]

Bankrupt, the first case you put in isn't clear and the second one while it holds the rent for that particular tenant, it seems the tenant was evicted anyway so the landlord can get a new tenant at whatever rent the market will take it.

The second case quite clearly states that a rent increase was disallowed, whether or not the tenant was evicted is not clear (i.e. they may have left of their own volition). These were only two examples that I found in a quick scan of the PRTB disputes page, I imagine there are others. The point is that the PRTB can and do exercise their power to prevent excessive rent increases.

In relation to rent decreases, if after a year the landlord comes to a rent review can he be forced to reduce the rent if the market has decreased. But it seems now you can get a tenant in and immediately the tenant can complain to the PRTB that the rent is too high.

The tenant would have to be renting for 6 months before disputing but it does seem to be the case that they can act as you describe.

I don't see how the PRTB can use their database to decide on what rents should be. You have to make allowance for quality & size of the property also. A graded structure like you have for hotels perhaps.

The PRTB claim to record such qualitative information (in their private database) so should be able to make a reasonable determination based on a like with like comparison.

 

[Bronte]

The only thing the PRTB can judge one property versus another is street and size. They cannot tell the quality of the property so it would be impossible to compare like with like.

 

[bankrupt]

The only thing the PRTB can judge one property versus another is street and size. They cannot tell the quality of the property so it would be impossible to compare like with like.

The PRTB records the rent paid, the floor size, the type of property (flat, apartment, house, half house etc), the location, number of bed spaces, number of bedrooms and number of occupants. It would be straightforward to use this information (and a little common sense) to make a reasonable comparison of rents, certainly not impossible.