So?? It doesn't matter how secure the chain is if there limited real life uses. And that is the problem with Bitcoin. It has severe scalability problems. Look at how long it can take a transaction to be verified currently. That problem won't be solved. All that Bitcoin has going for it is that it was the first to grab the worlds attention. Blockchain technology will develop. Other crypto-currencies will come on the market that will allow scalability and faster transaction times and where does that leave Bitcoin. Are we honestly saying that all the value in Bitcoin is that is has the longest mathematically provable secure chain??
Major fall in BTC price (16th Jan)
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So?? It doesn't matter how secure the chain is if there limited real life uses. And that is the problem with Bitcoin. It has severe scalability problems. Look at how long it can take a transaction to be verified currently. That problem won't be solved. All that Bitcoin has going for it is that it was the first to grab the worlds attention. Blockchain technology will develop. Other crypto-currencies will come on the market that will allow scalability and faster transaction times and where does that leave Bitcoin. Are we honestly saying that all the value in Bitcoin is that is has the longest mathematically provable secure chain??
How can you say with certainty that it wont be solved?
Here's a recent demo of a LN transaction -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtXe-wQyrWw&feature=youtu.be
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How long does it take? Mempool looks totally fine these days.
Coinbase probably stopped spamming.
https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#3m
Skimp on security at your peril.
Additionally, bitcoin's decentralization is what make it censorship resistant.
We haven't had a nation state try to take down the network yet, but it's probably coming.
How censorship resistant are other blockchains?
Duke of Marmalade
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That would be a useful network and this thought experiment precisely puts the finger on the illusion of bitcoin. Because it is of course not what bitcoin is. Bitcoin does not transfer money it transfers digital entries on a blockchain. Can I ask Brendan's question in a different way. What makes an entry on a blockchain signifying nothing more than it is such an entry have any value?
Getting back to that network, yes it does seem useful but very hard to see how to make money out of it. It would not in any way increase the value of the money it transfers. It would have to charge for its usefulness through transaction fees but since no-one owns the network how are these fees divvied out? I suppose it goes to those who verify the transfers, call them miners or whatever. But there is nothing there that would sore from a price of 1 to 20,000 and back to 7000 etc.
It is worth repeating the question in a different guise. Imagine a network which transfers dollars anywhere in the world, a network that no-one owns. What would that do for the value of the dollar?
TheBigShort
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Are you talking about US issued dollars that are owned by the Federal Reserve or US Government?
Dollars issued on a network that nobody owns, I imagine, could possibly collapse the value of the US Dollar, depending on its fundamental characteristics e.g. limited supply.
Duke, seriously.
What is money.
Bitcoin has brought forth a whole generation re-thinking that concept.
Those paper notes don't have any value at all. They just represent digits on some private ledgers, that is all.
All 50 flats listed in bitcoin, sold out in Dubai.
http://cryptocoin123.com/all-50-apartments-listed-in-bitcoin-sold-out-in-dubai/
http://cryptocoin123.com/all-50-apartments-listed-in-bitcoin-sold-out-in-dubai/
Do you think maybe these types of data leaks are more of a concern than bitcoin?
Centralized systems are a security hole.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/15/fedex_aws_s3_leak/
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BTW, the US government quietly dropped an inquiry into the Equifax hack.
Centralized systems are a security hole.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/15/fedex_aws_s3_leak/
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BTW, the US government quietly dropped an inquiry into the Equifax hack.
Gordon Gekko
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Interesting to see Charlie Munger call Bitcoin “a noxious poison”.
“I regard the Bitcoin craze as totally asinine. I expect the world to do silly things from time to time because everyone wants easy money. It’s just disgusting that people are taken in by something like this. Our Government’s lax approach to it is wrong. The right answer with stuff that bad is to step on it hard.”
“I regard the Bitcoin craze as totally asinine. I expect the world to do silly things from time to time because everyone wants easy money. It’s just disgusting that people are taken in by something like this. Our Government’s lax approach to it is wrong. The right answer with stuff that bad is to step on it hard.”
Duke of Marmalade
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The article states that the crypto is immediately converted into USD because of the volatile nature of crypto. And you can bet the crypto price of the apartments is determined by its current USD exchange rate and is not a fixed figure on a brochure. Same for the Canadian KFC. This is pure gimmickry. Is anything at all on this planet truly priced in crypto?
TheBigShort
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Did he propose any suggestions as to how to "step on it hard"?
Brendan Burgess
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I don't know that this is the right approach.
Bitcoin will fall, in time, to its correct value, zero.
Will it do much damage along the way?
There was a huge loss of wealth and there was huge public disorder in Albania after a similar irrational craze about a pyramid scheme swept the country.
But Bitcoin is not really sweeping any country except perhaps Japan and South Korea. They might want to do something about it. But even still, is it really a threat to the Japanese or Korean financial system?
And it's not a systematic fraud, even if the effects are the same. A few people make a lot of money and a lot of late entrants lose everything.
I think that the Central Banks should warn people about their stupidity, but the problem is that one of the selling points is the Shortie Syndrome so such warnings probably won't be listened to - they might even boost it.
If they regulate it, it gives it a credibility which makes it worse.
Sure, update money laundering rules to account for Bitcoin.
And sure, clamp down hard on the guys who are deliberately defrauding people as you would with any other fraud.
Brendan
TheBigShort
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Until some actual measures or steps are proposed its not an 'approach' of any kind. Its just verbals. It provides some comfort value to those who share the outlook of wanting to destroy what they dont understand. But without any concrete measures or proposals it quickly returns to its true value - zero.
So what is it then? If its not a systematic fraud why the dogmatic 'return to zero' view?
This would in imply that you believe central banks share your views?
You are giving me, and people who share my views, too much credit.
You are still too indoctrinated to the church of Central Bank authority.
So I take it steps to regulate it are ruled out in terms of the desires to 'step on it'?
This implies that there is systematic fraud. Which is it?
Brendan Burgess
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You are making many logical errors here. The fact that something is not a fraud, does not mean that it is worth something.
It is worth nothing. No one has shown any case for why it's worth anything. If you believe it's worth €50,000 and someone else who owns it believes it's worth €5,000 , it is not a fraud for him to sell it to you for €50k.
Just as if I own a property which I believe to be worth €100k but you offer to buy it for €200k, I am not defrauding you.
Bitcoin itself is not a systematic fraud as far as I can see.
But when there is a mass hysteria around, fraudsters will move in and rob people. So it's the frauds around Bitcoin and other cryptos which should be stopped.
Brendan
TheBigShort
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There have been plenty of examples provided to you as to why some people believe it has value. What that value is anyones guess. You believe it is worth zero.
Your previous post demonstrates how that belief system can work with property.
It shows how value is interpreted differently between different people. When lots of people are engaging in trading that value a market is formed and a price is set. Simples.
Because you see no value in bitcoin does not mean that it has no value to others.
Personally, I still have some doubts about bitcoin and crypto but I also consider it intriguing at this point. This is supported by the fact that I am conscious that so many intelligent, tech heads, have put forward reasoned detail as to how it all works and to date, no-one has put forward any rationale as to why it will fall flat on its face. Not only that, nobody ever approached me, through email, post, door-to-door, advertisements etc trying to sell me any bitcoin.
I agree. The Panorama programme the other evening purported, in its trailer, to expose a scam behind bitcoin. It didnt - it exposed a scam behind 'onecoin'? These alt coin scams, and tv programmes misleading viewers from the outset should be stopped.
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I don't really have a big problem with this anymore. At the end of the day, people will decide it's value in the long run. You could well be right - perhaps it's zero or closer to zero...or perhaps it's more. Time will tell.
We have KYC (Know Your Customer) and AML (Anti Money Laundering) regulations already in place. I'm not sure where someone could go to circumvent this right now (aside from peer to peer)? If the on and off-ramps are regulated in this way, what other step is there to be taken in this regard?
There isn't anyone in crypto who wouldn't want this. These sort of scams have nothing to do with crypto and are being run by Jordan Belfort types.
Now that's the thought process of a banker! What a statement. We have this ongoing stream of newsfeeds all pointing to the lack of regulation of bitcoin yet we won't regulate it because that would give it legitimacy? Price speculation aside, I thought you accepted that this technology has a certain value (i.e. there is a use case for it - even if we were to both agree that it's future price would be near zero)? I have no problem with regulation that does not stymie innovation. The kind that Munger is looking for is to crush it completely.
And by the way, whilst that would burn anyone who held any bitcoin (or other crypto), they'd want to be careful how they proceed. Who's to say what will happen if a hard line is taken and they push it underground. It could come back to bite them - well and truly.
I don't see the problem there.
Is it the expectation that every material and production line from concrete pouring to finishing, should be denominated and paid in bitcoin before it's counted as money?
The owners probably have to pay in the currency their suppliers accept.
There's probably a range of currencies involved like USD and AED.
Duke of Marmalade
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I'm sure you are right, why else did they drop the bitcoins like they were hot potatoes as soon as they received them?
The article says the apartments were "listed in bitcoin". That is really hard to believe if the owners are so reluctant to hold on to the bitcoin. If indeed their costs were in fiat they were running an enormous pre-sale risk.
The real price they want is as you say some combination of fiat. Let's say they want $200,000 for an apartment. How on earth do they set the bitcoin list price? Do they decide at the moment the print run of the brochure is done? Let's say they priced it when bitcoin was $20,000 that is the list price was 10 BTC. Sure they would have been snapped up. Unfortunately the owners would have made a substantial loss by the time the sale went through and they immediately converted to USD.
I stand to be ejected, but I doubt very much that these were "listed in bitcoin" in the conventional sense of that word. My guess is that they were listed in USD with a caption "Bitcoin most welcome". This is fake news.
The real moral of this story is the eagerness of the writers of the article to claim this as evidence of the attainment by bitcoin of viability as a currency, further endorsed by the fact that a Canadian KFC also accepts bitcoin. This is a cult indeed.
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There's actually a growing list of property listed in Bitcoin, and it's not even a new thing.
But maybe this is the first time your hearing of this?
On Craigslist they've also added an option to accept crypto currencies.
http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-priced-apartment-in-miami-2017-12
But maybe this is the first time your hearing of this?
On Craigslist they've also added an option to accept crypto currencies.
http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-priced-apartment-in-miami-2017-12