Major fall in BTC price (16th Jan)

Segwit is a fix to the malleability problem that was built to enable layer 2 solutions, I am talking about larger blocks also
 

But why would we want to? What on earth is about Bitcoin that justifies Iceland using more energy mining something like Bitcoin than it does for powering every home in the Country. Even if it renewable energy, it is still a waste. At the moment, there is no tangible use for Bitcoin that justifies it apart from financial speculation.

Even if we forget about complex maths and energy consumption, I still can't get my head around why this thing is being seen as the next big thing. I don't even know what problem it is trying to solve? Decentralised versus Centralised? Fine but the vast majority of the world are quiet happy with the current situation. Rightly or Wrongly. There is a significant number of people who will never trust a computer over a physical note. You might call them stupid but that's the reality. There isn't some huge clamour for the end of central banks. Getting rid of intermediaries? Why? What if I actually want an intermediary for things like trade finance, invoice discounting? What if my broadband was rubbish this month and I want a refund on the Direct Debit they took from me? Maybe I am just old but I really can't see why everyone is getting so excited about this apart from a speculation and novelty point of view.
 
I'll try to help

Sunny said:
Even if we forget about complex maths and energy consumption, I still can't get my head around why this thing is being seen as the next big thing. I don't even know what problem it is trying to solve?.
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By solving the byzantine generals problem (previously unresolved) enables trustless transactions without the risk of double spending

In layman terms "it enables secure transactions with no intermediary" (banks become obsolete)

Feel free to ask if you need more info
 
Transactions in what? If you answer "bitcoin" I will ask the supplementary "what is bitcoin?" so let's skip the middle step.
 
Okay I'll be more direct. Wikipedia describes Fiat as an "intrinsically useless object". Do you agree that bitcoin is also an intrinsically useless object? To shortcut the possible need for supplementaries, these are they:

A. If you think that unlike fiat bitcoin does (as Satoshi argues) have intrinsic value please explain why you are of that opinion.

B. If on the other hand you agree that bitcoin is an "intrinsically useless object" why would I care that it is trustless, secure and decentralised?
 
The market demand justifies the use.
How much energy does traditional banking and all those intermediaries consume?
Immeasurable.
Because they are not needed in the majority of transactions and are a drag on transacting.
Just hold your horses until the next cyclic economic crash and/or currency panic.
A lot of people will be looking for a place to store accumulated wealth.
 

I fail to see a link between my answer and this question and I won't weigh in.
On the other hand, if you want to further discuss my answer to "what problem is bitcoin trying to solve?" I will be happy to continue the conversation
 
jman0war said:
The market demand justifies the use.
How much energy does traditional banking and all those intermediaries consume?
Immeasurable.
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What market demand apart from financial speculation??

jman0war said:
Because they are not needed in the majority of transactions and are a drag on transacting.
Just hold your horses until the next cyclic economic crash and/or currency panic.
A lot of people will be looking for a place to store accumulated wealth.
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That's fine but Bitcoin isn't the solution either. There are plenty of centralised alternatives to banks for transactions with almost zero fees if that's what people want. There are plenty of occasions when intermediaries are needed and Bitcoin will never be able to meet that need so how does bitcoin make banks obsolete as someone says above?

I don't get the next bit about the next cyclic economic crash and looking for a place to store wealth? Are you suggesting that will be Bitcoin? It's a bit far fetched to claim that people are investing in Bitcoin to store and protect accumulated wealth? If they are, they are nuts....
 
Sunny said:
What market demand apart from financial speculation??
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Market demand doesn't need to conform to your preferences. Whether that market demand be speculation or online purchases, or paying strippers. Market demand is just that, it's demand. Where there is demand, supply shall follow.
Bitcoin enables people to transfer value with one another across distance very quickly, without intermediaries approval, without limits and without censorship.
Banking will never do that.
That's because you are somewhat uninformed about Bitcoin.
As an offshore, censorship resistant store of funds.
Companies that have global supply chains don't want their entire operation frozen on say, a single judge in Brussels dictate.
By keeping funds off shore in an seizure-resistant system.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cryp...ned-by-crypto-hedge-fund-cio-ari-paul-2017-11
 
Once the scaling issue is resolved, it can take it's place back as a transactional currency. On the energy aspect, sure that is an issue that needs to be addressed. However, as outlined above - it is being addressed in many different ways. It's not a waste of renewable energy if that energy was being wasted anyway. Mining operations that co-locate at the point of source can use energy that otherwise wouldn't make it's way to market.
As regards it just being financial speculation, then you will see the whole project come to an end sooner rather than later. However, I don't agree that the only aspect to this is financial speculation. Go back a year - there was little in the way of financial speculation (in comparison with now and the last few months).
Sunny said:
Decentralised versus Centralised? Fine but the vast majority of the world are quiet happy with the current situation. Rightly or Wrongly.
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They don't have to use it then. However, I see flaws in the existing system. Satoshi did - it's what lead to the bitcoin whitepaper in the first instance. You may like the pieces of paper in your wallet being devalued through the printing of more paper but I don't.
Other than that, there are other transactions for which bitcoin and crypto is better suited. The remittance market. Of late, I've had to do a number of international wire transfers - the system is (deliberately) archaic - and not customer driven. They leave it this way to try and create a pretence for the exorbitant fees.
Although it comes with responsibility, I like the idea of having full control over my cryptocurrency as opposed to leaving it in a bank. We came very,very close to taking a haircut with irish banks. If they don't hold the funds, it can't happen.

Sunny said:
There is a significant number of people who will never trust a computer over a physical note.
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Yes, that may well be. In fairness, its quite difficult for the ordinary joe to gain an understanding of how cryptocurrency works. It will take time - and I'd imagine that's why the younger demographic have taken to crypto more than others.

Sunny said:
You might call them stupid but that's the reality.
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I'm certainly not calling them stupid. Crypto will have to evolve so that it becomes more user friendly. There's a whole host of work to be done in the space - so this thing is going to run on for the foreseeable in terms of development.

Sunny said:
There isn't some huge clamour for the end of central banks.
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Well, we're not talking about a complete swap out. That's not realistic nor is it what anyone is calling for. However, surely you see deficiencies in centralised systems? Is it not progressive to look to improve upon existing systems?

In terms of personal banking, I wouldn't have any problem in not having an intermediary bank....if systems are developed to an extent where that became practicable. Perhaps not for everything - but for day to day stuff. As a case in point right now, I'm travelling overseas and will be for a prolonged period. I'm paying through the nose bank fees in foreign exchange, ATM fees, etc. This situation is primed for crypto ...and I'd be happy to use it once the eco-system is developed to an extent that I can.

Sunny said:
What if I actually want an intermediary for things like trade finance, invoice discounting?
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Then use them. Nobody is naive enough to think that banking is going to be killed off. However, some of their revenue streams may vapourise or be subject to competition. There's nothing wrong with that.


Sunny said:
What if my broadband was rubbish this month and I want a refund on the Direct Debit they took from me?
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Pay using a bitcoin escrow service.

Sunny said:
Maybe I am just old but I really can't see why everyone is getting so excited about this apart from a speculation and novelty point of view.
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The applications have not even begun to be developed so it's hard to see it's full effects. I'm not bothered about 'speculation' or 'novelty factor'. I am enthusiastic about the technology itself. Furthermore, there are applications for blockchain technology in supply chain, health care (records management and so forth), automated payments involving AI, micro-payments, land registry records, and so on. Bitcoin covers only one area of application of the technology generally.

Leo said:
A lot less than 250kWh per transaction.
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I've yet to see a fully worked calculation for traditional banking that covers ALL costs associated with same. In any event, I think we've covered the subject...ergo..there are developments in terms of what will be the energy requirement going forward, the nature of the energy used, etc.

Gus1970 said:
I fail to see a link between my answer and this question and I won't weigh in.
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You're quite right not to weigh in!
Duke - you're doing the very same thing....you're raking over the coals, doing a reset on the discussion and going back to repeat the very same stuff. We know what your argument is with regard to the intrinsic value of bitcoin vs. the intrinsic value of FIAT. Isn't there a point where people respectfully disagree in a discussion rather than rehashing the same stuff...
 
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Sunny said:
What market demand apart from financial speculation??
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Before it hit the scaling issue, bitcoin was making modest but ever increasing progress in terms of payments. Once Layer 2 solutions are rolled out, I expect that progress to continue.

Sunny said:
That's fine but Bitcoin isn't the solution either. There are plenty of centralised alternatives to banks for transactions with almost zero fees if that's what people want.
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Centralised systems have to be paid for somehow. Other than that, why trust another entity to hold your funds when you can do so yourself.

Sunny said:
There are plenty of occasions when intermediaries are needed and Bitcoin will never be able to meet that need so how does bitcoin make banks obsolete as someone says above?
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You're quite right - there are and you'll always have that option. However, crypto can erode and disrupt certain revenue streams that the banks currently exploit. This isn't an all or nothing deal - both can co-exist. By the way, when was the last time banking was disrupted? I take it you do believe that competition is healthy?

If you're talking about volatility - then sure, bitcoin is currently volatile. Over time, that volatility will diminish. That said, for basket case FIAT currencies, then bitcoin is a realistic hedge despite the volatility.

One last point.. We are moving to a cashless society. Sweden is already almost cashless. That leaves every single transaction you ever carried out as a digital transaction through a centralised system. Do you want every single transaction you ever made to be available to someone in an office somewhere? Everything you ever spent money on and when you spent it? I don't but perhaps you don't care? Fine. What if you're in a country with political problems - and you make a contribution to a political party other than the incumbent. They filter such transactions and target you. That's not a system that encourages personal freedom.
 
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Not everybody needs the censorship-resistance and seizure-resistance that Bitcoin enables, that is sure.
But some people find those things desire-able and so there is a market.

Look at a use case here that the media and banks are rather silent about:
Refugees.
Syrian, Iraqi refugees in war torn countries lose everything they previously owned.
Property gone, gold in their possession taken off them, money in banks confiscated by the regime.
When they end-up in another country they are cut-off from opening a bank account.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...efugees-bank-accounts-in-britain-9655838.html
https://www.ft.com/content/a6ed6248-1915-11e6-bb7d-ee563a5a1cc1

Bitcoin provides a ready solution to this.
No ID required, no regime can confiscate it (as long as you don't give them your private key).
Imagine a future in which Refugees are able to leave war torn countries and take all their accumulated wealth with them.
This will never happen in existing banking.
 

I think this is fair comment.

Just to add, personally, since the early 1980s, I've never fully trusted FIAT. I had a Mirafiori - nearly broke my heart.
 

If it's renewable energy it's never wasted. That is the point of it. To use a crude analogy its like digging a bucket of dry sand on a beach, throwing it into the sea and saying 'that is a waste of dry sand'.
For sure, the infrastructure that harnesses and delivers the energy can come under pressure with Bitcoin mining, but resolving that is doable if it is desired.


Sunny said:
Fine but the vast majority of the world are quiet happy with the current situation. Rightly or Wrongly.
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That is probably one of the most generalised statements ever while simultaneously one of the most limited in its scope. Admirable in its own right!

Sunny said:
There is a significant number of people who will never trust a computer over a physical note. You might call them stupid but that's the reality.
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I'm of the opinion that there are no stupid people as such, just that people do stupid things to lesser and greater extents.


I can't say I have a handle on the technical side of Bitcoin at all (certainly not the terminology surrounding the tech side) but I do think I understand the concept of it. Or at least, it is my concept of what it is and what it can do. Always open to persuasion that I may be wrong in that regard, but all that needs is someone to persuade me I am wrong.
On the otherhand, I don't purport to be able to convince you why you should buy Bitcoin, but rather explain why I buy Bitcoin.
 

Eh???? Just because it is renewable doesn't mean it is free to produce. It doesn't mean there isn't an environmental cost to having to build wind farms and hydro electric facilities. It doesn't mean that there isn't a more productive use of the energy rather than having massive computers attempt to mine bitcoin....
 
So what?
The price of bitcoin and the energy it consumes is market driven.

Q: Why should we have silly christmas lights all wasting electricity year on year?
A: Because that is what people have decided to spend it on.
 
jman0war said:
So what?
The price of bitcoin and the energy it consumes is market driven.

Q: Why should we have silly christmas lights all wasting electricity year on year?
A: Because that is what people have decided to spend it on.
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There you go again? What market apart from financial speculation? There is no mass market of bitcoin use that justifies that level of enegy consumption apart from the fact that speculation has made it economically viable for them to do it. You make it sound like that is a good thing.
 
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