Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
That seems an awful waste of paper and ink. He could simply launch cryptocurrencies till his heart's content from his laptop.
Major fall in BTC price (16th Jan)
- Thread starter jhegarty
- Start date
Negotiator
Registered User
- Messages
- 218
Tiz mighty stuff.....the only thing that's standing in the way of solving all our problems is a monkey load of paper and a few gallons of ink....fire up those printers Ted!
In fairness, Mr. Nene is only stating publicly what other finance ministers have thought. I suppose we should commend him for his honesty in revealing the fundamental flaw in having a centralised FIAT currency.
As regards your weak rebuttal, this thread is about Bitcoin rather than cryptocurrencies generally. That said, we've been over this...a crypto from the Dutchy of Marmalade would be worth nothing whatsoever. Bitcoin on the other hand has an exchange value - and it looks like it will cost a hell of a lot more S.A. Rand going forward in exchange for it.
Only the truly desperate would try to defend this. If there was any merit in your point of view, you'd just come out and admit that there is a flaw in centralised FIAT currency and the proposed actions of South Africa's Finance Minister reveal it. I won't hold my breath though...
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
So you can reference the South African Rand to demonstrate a generic flaw in all Fiat. Yet I am not allowed to generalise from bitcoin to crypto. Bitcoin is a lot closer to its crypto cousins (and offspring) than, say, the dollar is to the Rand.
Mr Nene has a lot in common with BC folk. He believes he can create wealth out of nothing. BC folk think they have created $200bn out of nothing. Admittedly they have adjusted their sights downwards from $400bn a few weeks ago.
I wasn't defending Mr Nene at all. I was criticising him for being behind the times. There are much more efficient ways in this digital era to defraud his people.
Mr Nene has a lot in common with BC folk. He believes he can create wealth out of nothing. BC folk think they have created $200bn out of nothing. Admittedly they have adjusted their sights downwards from $400bn a few weeks ago.
Last edited:
Where do you find this tripe?? Not one reputable news outlet has carried this story. The South African rand hasn't collapsed. There hasn't been a huge outflow of capital. What does that tell you about that story?
You have a penchant of late in going off topic. I referenced the South African Rand as FIAT had been referenced in the context of this discussion. In any event, you referenced other crypto's - I didn't stop you, did I?
Other than that, it very much does demonstrate a generic flaw in FIAT - which is relevant in the overall context of the development and evolution of Bitcoin. No clear acknowledgement from yourself that FIAT is flawed in this respect....but that's fine Duke. Others can make up their own minds.
No. You tried to twist it around and make it about Cryptocurrency - just like you are doing once again. Just so that we're clear, FIAT is imposed on citizens - Crypto use is up to the individual, it's a choice. That's why I would choose Bitcoin over the useless 'Marmalade' coin.
Last edited:
If the story is fake, that's fair enough. I'm hardly responsible for the media, am I?
In any event, for the purposes of this discussion, the point is that FIAT can be printed off at will whereas Bitcoin can't. This has happened and will happen in the future.
Same article is here: http://yournewswire.com/south-africa-print-money-rich/
Journalist is Baxter Dmitry, his contact information is at the bottom of the article.
Could contact him to see what the source of the quote is.
I think it's a troll website, a bit like the Onion.
Journalist is Baxter Dmitry, his contact information is at the bottom of the article.
Could contact him to see what the source of the quote is.
I think it's a troll website, a bit like the Onion.
newirishman
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,133
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
Yes indeed bitcoin meets most of those criteria. However it misses a couple. No government has declared it as legal tender. It is not backed by any State. BC folk argue that it is these very failings which give a $10,000 (or $20,000 take your pick) value to something which is "an intrinsically useless object".
Only in the context of the specific item that you highlight. i.e. that FIAT is just a piece of paper, equally bitcoin is just a line of code. Otherwise, it's a decentralised currency that is not defined by borders. No middleman has to have control of it i.e. you can store it yourself and transact it at will.
Getting into semantics here. A number of States have classified it as a currency - the most notable of which is Japan. Meanwhile, a couple of States in the U.S. are in the process of pushing legislation through to facilitate tax payments in Bitcoin.
We've been over this 'backing' business. The gold standard is dead - your FIAT is backed by jack.
You didn't mention the failings though, did you? ...like the one we were just discussing...FIAT can be printed at will. FIAT can be disappeared by the bank that holds it on your behalf (Bank of Cyprus anyone?) The bank that holds it on your behalf can decide whether they let you use it or not (i.e. they can lock access to your funds) or they can decide what you can spend it on (recent nonsense with regard to purchasing bitcoin using credit and debit cards).
I think you need to have a look back at newirishman's post. That text is lifted from a description of your beloved FIAT ;-)
Last edited:
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
I know its context. Are you arguing that bitcoin is not "an intrinsically useless object"?
I'm pointing out that FIAT doesn't have anything more to offer in terms of intrinsic value than BTC.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
And I was pointing out that Fiat's "intrinsically useless object" get's its "value" from State decrees and management and that, ironically, it is the very absence of such State involvement that have BC folk giving the BTC intrinsically useless object values of $10,000 or $20,000.
It is I admit a bit of a confidence trick (not meant in a derogatory way) to give any intrinsically useless object value; Satoshi recognised that. I get my confidence in the euro from the fact that the central apparatus of one of the largest and most developed economic blocs on earth is committed to maintaining that confidence and has succeeded for nearly 20 years and shows every sign of succeeding over the medium future, if long term inflation linked euro bond yields are any guide.
Satoshi's holy grail was to create a currency that did not need such central management of its value (which indeed would be an impressive achievement) but s/he recognised that this required bitcoins to have some intrinsic value . S/he squared the circle by arguing that if it was used as a currency then it would have achieved intrinsic value. IMHO that is very flawed logic and was borne of wishful thinking, as clearly Satoshi was not thick. Fiat has no such pretensions - it accepts that it has no intrinsic value. Its use as a currency is derived from other attributes.
But we are going round in circles.
You started this latest cul de sac by giving us fake news about the Rand to condemn all Fiat. Rather like Mr Trump retweeting some isolated muslim outrage to attack all muslims.tecate relishing fake news said:
It has historically built up market sentiment and structures... structures that fail time and time again. You only cite the better examples (euro, USD & GBP).... whilst conveniently evading the basket case currencies - a list of which is on hand in any given year. Their plight is brought about through centralised mismanagement. Even the euro project is flawed but there isn't a maturity in your viewpoint to acknowledge this.
Decentralisation is a key aspect of bitcoin. Nobody can interfere with it in the same way as FIAT.
As regards the jibe about valuation, we've been over this. We're in a price discovery phase with Bitcoin. The currency itself has not evolved fully as yet - nor its ecosystem. However, at no point will you acknowledge this. It doesn't make for maturity of thought and rationale but then if you're so caught up in your entrenched position...
That many FIAT currencies started out as Gold backed and once market sentiment was established, they pulled the backing out from under it? I agree.
It has been pointed out to you at length that the euro project is flawed. Furthermore, whilst the larger economy blocks are stable, that's not the case elsewhere. BTC doesn't recognise borders and has a use case wherever there is state mismanagement of the economy and the respective FIAT currency.
Nonsense. In terms of Intrinsic value, they're both the same. In terms of 'other attributes', they both have a very different set of them. Furthermore, you approach this subject as if it's a winner takes all scenario..that one must win out. That's not the case. Crypto's do certain things better and have a use case.
You have some nerve to point the finger re. talk of going round in circles & cul de sacs given that you have taken a number of threads off topic to pursue exactly that....regurgitating the same argument.
On the fake news jibe, it doesn't say much for either one of you to hold me accountable for the media. You both know perfectly well I took that article and the direct quotation at face value. You're suggesting that I knowingly spread fake news. That says a lot about the extent of your entrenched position and immaturity in this discussion.
If the article is inaccurate, no problem. The point still stands though - Certain states have gone to the printers in mismanaging their FIAT currencies in the past.
Contemptible. As regards the 'isolated' aspect, there's a whole list of failed FIAT currencies past and present. Furthermore, you can be sure there's another one in process as we speak. That puts paid to your 'isolated' nonsense.
Last edited:
Just when I was getting bored of Bitcoin. Brilliant, Brilliant. Post of the thread.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
I inserted the bold, this time to deliberately promote my worldview. They? THEY? This epitomizes the paranoic delusion central to Shortie Syndrome
THEY? A wicked elite who encashed all their currency for gold and then conned the rest of us by issuing Fiat?
This is what they teach in the universities. It was recognised that part of the problem of the Great Depression was the deflationary influence of the gold standard. The gold standard was abandoned and one of the greatest leaps in modern economic management was launched - Fiat currency, freely manageable in supply to support the economy's real needs. The result has been the most remarkable transformation of human economic activity which has resulted in growth beyond anybody's wildest dreams. Fiat has been adopted by every country in the World. Nobody uses a gold standard any more. But hey, the whole World is dominated by elites engaged in this gigantic fraud.
Givuz a break!
Last edited by a moderator:
The tyrannical rant isn't helpful. Other that that, of course it's a "they". Did I speculate or make any comment on the "they".? It's a centralised system... someone made a decision to drop the gold standard. Do you have basic comprehension difficulties?
Firstly, I think it's pretty contemptible that you resort to petty personalised labelling of another poster. Secondly, It's equally contemptible that two of you now accuse me of having 2 forum personas - classy.
More fiction. I didn't mention any elite group. John Grisham is only in the hapenny place by comparison.
The irony....
Last edited:
Like a moth you've flown close to the flame here. Those "State decrees and management" come down to dictates, compulsion, coercion.
The State uses coercion over it's people and the threat of coercion to pay for it's Debt-based money.
Duke of Marmalade
Registered User
- Messages
- 4,448
tecate why has the whole World adopted Fiat?