Duke of Marmalade
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That seems an awful waste of paper and ink. He could simply launch cryptocurrencies till his heart's content from his laptop.
That seems an awful waste of paper and ink. He could simply launch cryptocurrencies till his heart's content from his laptop.This old FIAT is great stuff altogether.
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Zimbabwe 2.0?
This old FIAT is great stuff altogether.
In fairness, Mr. Nene is only stating publicly what other finance ministers have thought. I suppose we should commend him for his honesty in revealing the fundamental flaw in having a centralised FIAT currency.That seems an awful waste of paper and ink. He could simply launch cryptocurrencies to his heart's content from his laptop.
I wasn't defending Mr Nene at all. I was criticising him for being behind the times. There are much more efficient ways in this digital era to defraud his people.Only the truly desperate would try to defend this.
This old FIAT is great stuff altogether.
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Zimbabwe 2.0?
You have a penchant of late in going off topic. I referenced the South African Rand as FIAT had been referenced in the context of this discussion. In any event, you referenced other crypto's - I didn't stop you, did I?So you can reference the South African Rand to demonstrate a generic flaw in all Fiat.
No. You tried to twist it around and make it about Cryptocurrency - just like you are doing once again. Just so that we're clear, FIAT is imposed on citizens - Crypto use is up to the individual, it's a choice. That's why I would choose Bitcoin over the useless 'Marmalade' coin.I wasn't defending Mr Nene at all. I was criticising him for being behind the times. There are much more efficient ways in this digital era to defraud his people.
Where do you find this tripe?? Not one reputable news outlet has carried this story. The South African rand hasn't collapsed. There hasn't been a huge outflow of capital. What does that tell you about that story?
Fiat money has been defined variously as:
While gold- or silver-backed representative money entails the legal requirement that the bank of issue redeem it in fixed weights of gold or silver, fiat money's value is unrelated to the value of any physical quantity. A coin is fiat currency to the extent that its face value, or value defined in law, is greater than its market value as metal.
- Any money declared by a government to be legal tender.
- State-issued money which is neither convertible by law to any other thing, nor fixed in value in terms of any objective standard.
- Intrinsically valueless money used as money because of government decree.
- An intrinsically useless object that serves as a medium of exchange (also known as fiduciary money.)
The term fiat derives from the Latin fiat ("let it be done") used in the sense of an order, decree or resolution.
Yes indeed bitcoin meets most of those criteria. However it misses a couple. No government has declared it as legal tender. It is not backed by any State. BC folk argue that it is these very failings which give a $10,000 (or $20,000 take your pick) value to something which is "an intrinsically useless object".That is an interesting discussion over the last few posts. Surely bitcoin is text box definition of fiat money?
Looking at Wikipedia:
Only in the context of the specific item that you highlight. i.e. that FIAT is just a piece of paper, equally bitcoin is just a line of code. Otherwise, it's a decentralised currency that is not defined by borders. No middleman has to have control of it i.e. you can store it yourself and transact it at will.That is an interesting discussion over the last few posts. Surely bitcoin is text box definition of fiat money? Looking at Wikipedia:
Getting into semantics here. A number of States have classified it as a currency - the most notable of which is Japan. Meanwhile, a couple of States in the U.S. are in the process of pushing legislation through to facilitate tax payments in Bitcoin.No government has declared it as legal tender.
We've been over this 'backing' business. The gold standard is dead - your FIAT is backed by jack.It is not backed by any State.
You didn't mention the failings though, did you? ...like the one we were just discussing...FIAT can be printed at will. FIAT can be disappeared by the bank that holds it on your behalf (Bank of Cyprus anyone?) The bank that holds it on your behalf can decide whether they let you use it or not (i.e. they can lock access to your funds) or they can decide what you can spend it on (recent nonsense with regard to purchasing bitcoin using credit and debit cards).BC folk argue that it is these very failings
I think you need to have a look back at newirishman's post. That text is lifted from a description of your beloved FIAT ;-)"an intrinsically useless object".
I know its context. Are you arguing that bitcoin is not "an intrinsically useless object"?I think you need to have a look back at newirishman's post. That text (an intrinsically useless object) is lifted from a description of your beloved FIAT ;-)
I'm pointing out that FIAT doesn't have anything more to offer in terms of intrinsic value than BTC.Are you arguing that bitcoin is not "an intrinsically useless object"?
And I was pointing out that Fiat's "intrinsically useless object" get's its "value" from State decrees and management and that, ironically, it is the very absence of such State involvement that have BC folk giving the BTC intrinsically useless object values of $10,000 or $20,000.I'm pointing out that FIAT doesn't have anything more to offer in terms of intrinsic value than BTC.
You started this latest cul de sac by giving us fake news about the Rand to condemn all Fiat. Rather like Mr Trump retweeting some isolated muslim outrage to attack all muslims.tecate relishing fake news said:This old FIAT is great stuff altogether.
It has historically built up market sentiment and structures... structures that fail time and time again. You only cite the better examples (euro, USD & GBP).... whilst conveniently evading the basket case currencies - a list of which is on hand in any given year. Their plight is brought about through centralised mismanagement. Even the euro project is flawed but there isn't a maturity in your viewpoint to acknowledge this.And I was pointing out that Fiat's "intrinsically useless object" get's its "value" from State decrees and management
Decentralisation is a key aspect of bitcoin. Nobody can interfere with it in the same way as FIAT.ironically, it is the very absence of such State involvement that have BC folk giving the BTC intrinsically useless object values of $10,000 or $20,000.
That many FIAT currencies started out as Gold backed and once market sentiment was established, they pulled the backing out from under it? I agree.It is I admit a bit of a confidence trick
It has been pointed out to you at length that the euro project is flawed. Furthermore, whilst the larger economy blocks are stable, that's not the case elsewhere. BTC doesn't recognise borders and has a use case wherever there is state mismanagement of the economy and the respective FIAT currency.I get my confidence in the euro from the fact that the central apparatus of one of the largest and most developed economic blocs on earth is committed to maintaining that confidence and has succeeded for nearly 20 years and shows every sign of succeeding over the medium future, if long term inflation linked euro bond yields are any guide.
Nonsense. In terms of Intrinsic value, they're both the same. In terms of 'other attributes', they both have a very different set of them. Furthermore, you approach this subject as if it's a winner takes all scenario..that one must win out. That's not the case. Crypto's do certain things better and have a use case.Satoshi's holy grail was to create a currency that did not need such central management of its value (which indeed would be an impressive achievement) but s/he recognised that this required bitcoins to have some intrinsic value . S/he squared the circle by arguing that if it was used as a currency then it would have achieved intrinsic value. IMHO that is very flawed logic and was borne of wishful thinking, as clearly Satoshi was not thick. Fiat has no such pretensions - it accepts that it has no intrinsic value. Its use as a currency is derived from other attributes.
You have some nerve to point the finger re. talk of going round in circles & cul de sacs given that you have taken a number of threads off topic to pursue exactly that....regurgitating the same argument.But we are going round in circles. You started this latest cul de sac by giving us fake news about the Rand to condemn all Fiat.
Contemptible. As regards the 'isolated' aspect, there's a whole list of failed FIAT currencies past and present. Furthermore, you can be sure there's another one in process as we speak. That puts paid to your 'isolated' nonsense.Rather like Mr Trump retweeting some isolated muslim outrage to attack all muslims.
Surely bitcoin is text box definition of fiat money?
I inserted the bold, this time to deliberately promote my worldview. They? THEY? This epitomizes the paranoic delusion central to Shortie SyndromeThat many FIAT currencies started out as Gold backed and once market sentiment was established, they pulled the backing out from under it? I agree.
The tyrannical rant isn't helpful. Other that that, of course it's a "they". Did I speculate or make any comment on the "they".? It's a centralised system... someone made a decision to drop the gold standard. Do you have basic comprehension difficulties?They? THEY? This epitomizes the paranoic delusion central to Shortie Syndrome...
THEY? A wicked elite who encashed all their currency for gold and then conned the rest of us by issuing Fiat.
Firstly, I think it's pretty contemptible that you resort to petty personalised labelling of another poster. Secondly, It's equally contemptible that two of you now accuse me of having 2 forum personas - classy.central to Shortie Syndrome (incidentally where has B/S gone? Seems to have vanished since the Fly spotted the dual personality).
More fiction. I didn't mention any elite group. John Grisham is only in the hapenny place by comparison.they, the whole World is dominated by elites engaged in this gigantic fraud.
The irony....Givuz a break!
Like a moth you've flown close to the flame here. Those "State decrees and management" come down to dictates, compulsion, coercion.And I was pointing out that Fiat's "intrinsically useless object" get's its "value" from State decrees and management and that, ironically, it is the very absence of such State involvement that have BC folk giving the BTC intrinsically useless object values of $10,000 or $20,000..
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