LPT Surcharge applied on early IT return - freaking out

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finny

Registered User
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Hi, I'll call Revenue first thing in the morning but would like a second opinion or if anyone has experience on this (I'm 38 weeks pregnant and just got a huge shock when I saw our tax liability for 2019):
  • Agreed with Revenue by the deadline in 2019 to pay LPT for 2020 by single debit authority. This was due to be taken in March 2020 but delayed twice by Revenue due to Covid with the debit ultimately applying to everyone paying by this method on 21 July.
  • Filed 2019 joint income tax return early due to the fact that we had to prove my husband's earnings for 2019 to DEASP for correct PUP payment rate (and because I'm pregnant and wanted it out of the way). Filed this return, coincidentally, on 21 July 2020.
  • Logged into my ROS today for the first time since late July and see that on 13 August 2020 Revenue issued me with an amended assessment including an amount of 2,559euro for "Amount of surcharge due under S 1084 because of non−compliance with LPT requirements". I was given 30 days to appeal. I didn't see the notification and missed the email telling me it was there. My fault.
  • I see from their LPT surcharge manual that the surcharge applies if, at the time you file your IT return, you have a "payable LPT liability that is unpaid and that is not being paid in accordance with an agreed payment arrangement."
  • It seems that I have been penalised for filing the IT return early. However, arguably:
    • Revenue made one-sided changes to the LPT payment dates for 2020 - I would have paid in March
    • At the time I filed my return, the payment WAS being made in accordance with an "agreed payment arrangement"
    • I filed the IT return the same date the direct debit was due to be taken
    • I can, at any time before the ROS deadline (now moved to December 2020), file an amended return and the surcharge shouldn't apply at all.
  • Do you think if I call, Revenue would listen to these arguments and delete the surcharge, or is there a risk that they'll say I had 30 days to appeal so tough luck?? I am 38 weeks pregnant now and really freaked out.
 
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If your facts are correct then phone Revenue and explain.

If they fob you off tell them that you intend ringing Joe Duffy's researcher to advise the Nation.

Once your facts are right.
 
WizardDr said:
If your facts are correct then phone Revenue and explain.

If they fob you off tell them that you intend ringing Joe Duffy's researcher to advise the Nation.

Once your facts are right.
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Thanks - yes I checked all facts and I also see my LPT status on the LPT website is fully compliant. The application of this surcharge seems crazy in this instance!
 
Finny you’ve more important things to worry about than revenue right now. Concentrate on your pregnancy, if you’ve done everything correctly, which it seems you have, then don’t start stressing about revenue.
 
Bronte said:
Finny you’ve more important things to worry about than revenue right now. Concentrate on your pregnancy, if you’ve done everything correctly, which it seems you have, then don’t start stressing about revenue.
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Thanks Bronte, I'd really like to get it sorted before I have the baby... or the stress of this sends me into labour. We've always been compliant taxpayers and I've never had any letters like this so thought I'd pop on here to see how Revenue generally handle these things.
 
finny said:
Thanks - yes I checked all facts and I also see my LPT status on the LPT website is fully compliant. The application of this surcharge seems crazy in this instance!
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It is so use a size 12 boot. Guaranteed stress reliever. I think if you speak softly holding a big stick they will attend to it. It could well be a system bug as they had to do significant Covid-19 changes.
 
finny said:
Thanks Bronte, I'd really like to get it sorted before I have the baby... or the stress of this sends me into labour. We've always been compliant taxpayers and I've never had any letters like this so thought I'd pop on here to see how Revenue generally handle these things.
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ok, I get that, but you need to understand those letters from revenue could be wrong, and that all revenue letters sound like they are going to send you to jail.

If you want it sorted phone revenue, be careful, the revenue helpline is not revenue, it a call Center based in Cork, you need them to get you put through to a competent person in revenue.

Also send an email to revenue with proper facts. Hold the moan to joe for now as your ‘nuclear‘ option.
 
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Bronte said:
ok, I get that, but you need to understand those letters from revenue could be wrong, and that all revenue letters should like they are going to send you to jail.

If you want it sorted phone revenue, be careful, the revenue helpline is not revenue, it a call Center based in Cork, you need them to get you put through to a competent person in revenue.

Also send an email to revenue with proper facts. Hold the moan to joe for now as your ‘nuclear‘ option.
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Thanks I'll do that. I'm actually a tax consultant but I work for a multinational so don't deal with Revenue income tax matters ever. Will keep it to facts as I would normally...
 
WizardDr said:
Bronte - the call centre would transfer the call I think?
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Yes they do transfer the call, but it can take a while to figure out that they can't deal with your issue. That was what happened to me. And as always advise on the phone is generally worthless. But it takes revenue ages to get back on emails.
 
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Bronte said:
Yes they do transfer the call, but it can take a while to figure out that they can't deal with your issue. That was what happened to me. And as always advise on the phone is enerally worthless. But it takes revenue ages to get back on emails.
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I called them first thing. She asked me to put it through MyEnquiries and they would review my case and let decide whether surcharge should be removed. Thing is, we want to enter into a 6 month phased payment arrangement for the IT liability and need that agreed by 31 October to avail of the covid reduced interest rate.... but need to agree the amount first. So, will have to call them each day and annoy them it seems....
 
Yikes, what a to-do.

Wizard, welcome back! Great to see you are as ebullient as ever, but to be fair to the OP at 38 weeks pregnant, I'm sure she has got little energy for rowing unnecessarily or going squawking to Joe about something that can no doubt be quickly and easily resolved.

Before running off anywhere one needs to ask, what are the criteria for the surcharge applying:

"The ‘test’ as to whether a LPT-generated surcharge applies is done when the income tax return is filed, as long as this occurs on or before the deadline for doing so, i.e. either the statutory return filing date or the online extension date. The ‘test’ consists of asking (in relation to all of a liable person’s properties):

1. if any LPT return that was due to be filed, before the date on which the income tax return is filed, has been filed and
2. where all of the LPT returns have been filed, is there any payable LPT liability that is unpaid and that is not being paid in accordance with an agreed
payment arrangement.

If the answer to either of these questions is “yes”, the surcharge applies." (https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/local-property-tax/part-07/07-02.pdf)

From the OP, it appears that the answer to both 1 and 2 above is No, as there was a SDA in place for the money to be paid, which constitutes an agreed payment arrangement (which AFAIK could only be in place if the necessary return itself is in place).

It appears that because of whatever actions and deferrals were taken on account of Covid, has caused the system to incorrectly answer the questions that it "asks" itself, resulting in an amended assessment issuing. It will be rectified, based on the facts, once it is brought to Revenue's attention. No sticks, Joe's or other sideshows required.
 
finny said:
I called them first thing. She asked me to put it through MyEnquiries and they would review my case and let decide whether surcharge should be removed. Thing is, we want to enter into a 6 month phased payment arrangement for the IT liability and need that agreed by 31 October to avail of the covid reduced interest rate.... but need to agree the amount first. So, will have to call them each day and annoy them it seems....
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Be clear to state at the outset in the Enquiry, that it requires to be resolved ASAP so as to allow a Phased Payment to be set up before the deadline, so the person processing it can mark it for priority.
 
torblednam said:
Be clear to state at the outset in the Enquiry, that it requires to be resolved ASAP so as to allow a Phased Payment to be set up before the deadline, so the person processing it can mark it for priority.
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Thanks for this. I'll log in again and add this as an update. I agree with above, read the test and can see it was incorrectly applied. I was worried I'd missed my chance to appeal but it seems that it was applied in error so going to TAC won't be necessary. Thanks again.
 
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